#2.3 Francesca Cortesi, CPO at Vend, Product Advisor and Keynote Speaker

00:00:00: And if I could go back, I would like ask for help much earlier.

00:00:05: That's something that i didn't do and you know having a coach... ...having a mentor have somebody to bounce ideas with.

00:00:13: but I also know.. ..that some people couldn't work with.

00:00:16: so If they write something there will not be happy words.

00:00:22: Unconsciously I was holding onto something because They thought that I'd let down my up bringing if I would make that choice.

00:00:32: The data is there, but the data doesn't know your context or customer and all of this comes from

00:00:40: intuition.".

00:00:41: And one thing i did was mapping my story line which sounds crazy like a user journey in my life... No!

00:00:51: That's against my religion.

00:00:53: Pizza is pizza not a white pizza.

00:00:56: please stop it.

00:01:05: Moin from Hamburg and welcome to Produktmenschen, the podcast that meets people behind our products.

00:01:12: I'm your host Tobias Freudenreich co-founder of Hey Clarity & Product Leadership Coach.

00:01:17: Wow!

00:01:18: Time flies And here we are with yet another episode of season two.

00:01:24: Just one quick note before we jump right into this episode.

00:01:27: This recording is a little older but Content-wise, absolutely up to date.

00:01:32: Besides one little detail my guest recently took on yet another challenge and became the CPO of VENT a marketplace builder that's very well known in The Nordics.

00:01:44: It looks like she continues to take on major challenges And I'm pretty sure VENT can be very happy about this hire.

00:01:51: so congratulations VENT!

00:01:54: Now without further ado i hope you enjoy todays episode.

00:02:20: Today's guest took one of the least linear path you can imagine from studying philosophy to the catwalks and campaigns And somewhere along that way, she swapped out couture for high growth.

00:02:40: Francesca Cortesi is not your typical product leader unless you're idea of.

00:02:45: Typical includes moving countries switching industries learning a new language and leading the company through an IPO all while building products.

00:02:54: teams actually enjoy working together.

00:02:57: She believes in curiosity and certainty collaboration over heroism, which already makes her one of my favorite kinds.

00:03:07: She is the former chief product officer at Hamnet – one of Sweden's most beloved apps….

00:03:12: …and now founder of Prodotto Collective where she helps scale ups turn growing pains into growth gains!

00:03:23: Furthermore, she hosts the Product Academy Tough Love podcast together with Tanja Lau.

00:03:29: And ever since I had the honor of introducing her on stage at Product Attard in twenty-twenty three... ...I admire her as one of the most thoughtful product minds in Europe!

00:03:39: So no surprise that she won the Mind The Product Rising Star Award!

00:03:44: Sono davvero felice che tu sia qui?

00:03:49: Benvenuta Francesca Cortesi.

00:03:51: Grazie Tobias, che introduzione.

00:03:54: Love the Italian touch on it with a bit of Spanish!

00:03:58: Yeah I always pronounce Italian and Spanish...I can give it another try.

00:04:02: No?

00:04:02: It's good leave

00:04:03: like that.

00:04:04: Leave like this.

00:04:05: Sono

00:04:05: davvero felice che tu stacchi

00:04:07: sia

00:04:08: qui.

00:04:09: Sia qui.

00:04:10: It is like this sono davvero felice che tu sia qui.

00:04:30: We should end the podcast here.

00:04:31: Let's do an Italian lesson, are you heading there for summer?

00:04:34: I can give some

00:04:35: tips!

00:04:43: German native speakers and they use the podcast to learn German.

00:04:46: That's awesome.

00:04:47: working in product, then listening with German podcasts...

00:04:50: Better than Duolingo?

00:04:53: I hope so!

00:04:54: You can make

00:04:56: an app out of it today

00:04:57: or maybe not?

00:04:58: we're all sick of that duo getting sad doing stuff.

00:05:01: So if you have a ten-episode streak So Francesca, to warm it up I would like to start with a few quick sentence completions if you don't mind.

00:05:16: There's no right or wrong answers just whatever comes into your mind and i will ask you to answer as quickly and intuitively as possible so that both my script can be seen.

00:05:32: Which script is not very sharp now, okay.

00:05:36: So are you ready?

00:05:37: Ready let's do it!

00:05:39: Excellent the biggest myth about product work is...

00:05:44: Oh god The biggest myth of product works needs to be complicated.

00:05:52: Love that if I had to describe my career path as a song It would be

00:06:00: ironic

00:06:02: from Alanis

00:06:03: Morissette

00:06:07: Wonderful.

00:06:07: Hey, I will change the importance of intuition to simple

00:06:13: one.

00:06:14: The important of intuition?

00:06:17: This one...I don't even get a question.

00:06:18: Hey!

00:06:19: I would change the import of intuition too.

00:06:23: brainwashing.

00:06:25: To brainwasher wonderful pizza.

00:06:27: How why that controversial

00:06:29: stop it already

00:06:31: to me is shit

00:06:35: That's not a pizza.

00:06:36: Sorry, I mean that i get really provoked by the pizza.

00:06:39: why?

00:06:39: in sweden It's like pizza kebab or kebab pizzas they call.

00:06:44: it is like.

00:06:44: everyone asked me did you ever try?

00:06:46: No, I will know that's against my religion.

00:06:50: I want to pizza its pizza Not a white pizza.

00:06:52: please stop

00:06:53: it.

00:06:54: I feel Really passionate about this.

00:06:56: not AI which I couldn't really understand but pizza.

00:06:59: yeah for sure

00:07:02: Wonderful that's exactly the erection.

00:07:06: The bravest decision I've made in the last ten years was...

00:07:12: Starting my own company.

00:07:14: ...the product i love most as a user is?

00:07:18: Headspace!

00:07:19: What's that?

00:07:21: It's an app for meditation

00:07:23: and you

00:07:24: use

00:07:24: it on daily basis

00:07:26: or...?

00:07:26: That's only up apart from email, like the weather app they used every day.

00:07:31: Excellent In ten years AI will

00:07:36: Hopefully do my laundry.

00:07:39: Yeah, I guess that's something will not happen but we might be surprised right?

00:07:46: Yeah yeah i am writing one of your linked endorsements given by... Not sure if i pronounce them correctly Eagle Sailman or Salomon?

00:08:00: Egal, yeah.

00:08:02: One of her best strengths is the way she asks questions that make you think and challenge your assumptions.

00:08:11: So today I'm going to try to ask.

00:08:13: You're asking the question

00:08:15: challenging questions But this endorsement put a bit of pressure on me.

00:08:23: Can i answer questions back?

00:08:25: yes sure

00:08:26: Okay,

00:08:26: in best case we might have something like a conversation.

00:08:34: So if the Francesca who worked in fashion could travel to today and see you speaking at conferences leading product organizations coaching founders starting your own business I was asking myself would she even recognize Be proud or would she just be totally confused?

00:08:57: I think the piece that she would recognize, which keep with me and it was a bit of problem at start my product career to be honest.

00:09:05: It's the fashion style And uh... That i keep.

00:09:11: And the part that was a problem is because at the beginning in Sweden, I was many times there only girl or woman in the room.

00:09:21: And people like oh she's so cute to dress like it was dressing completely different from the engineers in Sweden with Birkenstock and white socks

00:09:31: which

00:09:31: if you will ever see me with that means... Like i always tell my asthma put me into hospital If You Ever See Me Because other issues.

00:09:42: But it sounds silly, but going from that fashion bubble to the tech bubble I had like there was a period when i started to dress differently because they didn't fit in and I needed to fit in.

00:09:57: so now I'm back uh to my fashion style So that Francesca would definitely be proud that I am back on that.

00:10:05: probably twenty years ago she wouldn't even think that I would be interested in this kind of topics.

00:10:12: So maybe a bit proud, interested and confused for sure

00:10:18: but i guess proud definitely right because you've achieved so lot over the years.

00:10:25: was it something you could have imagined back then?

00:10:28: Not at all.

00:10:29: I mean, you said it in that wonderful intro.

00:10:33: If there's one thing they take with me is like nothing of what i've done was planned for.

00:10:38: the only thing that actually planned Was getting into fashion?

00:10:42: That was really something that I wanted to do and remember going And didn't have any contact on this highly competitive in Milan Until I mean that was really, really wanted Other than dad.

00:11:03: I made other type of move.

00:11:05: i decide to move to sweden.

00:11:06: i Decide To start like taking opportunities in front Of me.

00:11:11: which open door?

00:11:12: Which i crossed.

00:11:13: i had people Like That.

00:11:15: you know.

00:11:15: one thing led to the other but nothing Was as planned.

00:11:19: later on it

00:11:20: looks like A clear path in hindsight, but not when you're in it.

00:11:25: Right?

00:11:26: Definitely no.

00:11:27: and actually I did a lot of soul searching last year And one thing i did was like mapping my the storyline Of My Life which sounds crazy Like The User Journey Of My life.

00:11:38: Yeah!

00:11:39: It Was Super Interesting Because There Was Every Single Time In My Life.

00:11:45: After deep, something happened like I was not in a happy place.

00:11:50: There was always a high and that high came from me taking A weird step or a step That i hadn't planned Or Like Something That Happened to Me Just Like You Know What?

00:12:01: I'm Gonna Do This.

00:12:02: It Was The Same Like Moving To Stockholm I Didn'T?

00:12:04: I Was Driving In Milan Living My Best Life.

00:12:07: the devil wears Prada Kind Of Thing And I'Ve Like Sweden Was Not Even In The Raider.

00:12:13: So what made you move to Sweden?

00:12:15: because he said, You wanted to have that job in fashion and which

00:12:19: I did.

00:12:20: And why

00:12:20: do you leave it?

00:12:21: That's a great question.

00:12:23: Always say I didn't pick the city.

00:12:25: Pick the guy and then give me a plot twist.

00:12:28: yeah

00:12:29: Because what your thinking that is Swedish

00:12:32: No, its probably

00:12:32: not right Is from the same city where i'm From and you're like yes and he's like, why the hell did you end up there?

00:12:40: He moved here for his PhD.

00:12:43: And at the beginning it was their one year by himself.

00:12:45: because I thought yeah go thank you but...I'm not gonna follow that guy!

00:12:51: I mean i worked from my job when I was driving.

00:12:54: so what happened is this light in doors.. One of these colleagues saw a job she sent to me as a translator.

00:13:07: So I was just applied because, why not?

00:13:09: What did they have to lose.

00:13:11: And i got the job right.

00:13:14: so it's like okay that is a famous train passing out passing and then i jumped on the train and did this job really few months thinking about going back in fashion.

00:13:28: but i didn't do it in Milan or Stockholm.

00:13:33: But I mean that actually was the decision and the frustration on this shut door than open to me, the door or two product management.

00:13:41: Which I don't know if i would ever in my life thought about that?

00:13:45: If it wasn't for my rethinking what I needed do.

00:13:49: so The whole product community has to be thankful to your partner

00:13:54: Yeah, or to those people in fashion and Stockholm who thought I was never good enough.

00:14:01: Those are maybe the ones to thank for!

00:14:04: And did you know him from your time at Bagamo?

00:14:07: Was it just a funny coincidence that he was born on your home town?

00:14:11: No no now we're gonna go like my love life... We met each other high school

00:14:18: In high school?

00:14:19: Yeah, but we didn't date in high school.

00:14:21: He was into me... ...but I wasn't into him.

00:14:24: and bad boys at the time.

00:14:25: he's too good of a guy!

00:14:27: But then somehow when we went out to university.. ..I thought wait a minute that guy.

00:14:34: and so yeah the rest is history

00:14:36: Wonderful.

00:14:43: We should maybe double click on that about my questions.

00:14:48: That tells me something, we should go deeper into the space.

00:14:54: Wonderful but I wanted to ask you at this point of time what moments are there where you feel your Italian identity shining through most whether in life or leadership?

00:15:08: Oh, I think it's like my... When you dress.

00:15:11: that is what i learned.

00:15:12: The

00:15:12: what?

00:15:12: Sorry!

00:15:13: When your dress

00:15:14: works yeah That for sure.

00:15:16: uh..I think its more like.

00:15:19: sometimes I can come out as passionate and then say something like oh no shit or going like this.

00:15:29: we cannot do this or shittie these kind of things And really also pushing.

00:15:36: I had like a bit of a cultural clash in Sweden at the beginning, because i was used to people being really direct and maybe too direct.

00:15:46: And may be too much...I'm high-titled then decide!

00:15:51: Then come into culture where there's lot which is great working together but also consensus.

00:15:58: So everyone needs to be involved, and if one is too have an opinion.

00:16:02: And maybe there's not that much of someone taking than the decision like this question can go on a non-nonon.

00:16:12: I don't know If That' s One Of The Reason Why Then I Progressed My Career?

00:16:16: Because It Was Always The One Like I Appreciate Opinion ,I Take In Opinions But Than If There'S Contrasting OpinION We still have to move on.

00:16:25: So I mean, i'm normally the one saying okay with this side this we listen to this and listen to This will look at these with decide this Disagree and commit?

00:16:35: We're gonna go along right.

00:16:37: so that is like definitely Like more my italian things.

00:16:40: And the other One Is sometimes as where like you know like it put The f words here in there and maybe Sometimes they feel oh Maybe That's not Professional or people don't think that is Good, but it just comes out of me.

00:16:57: It's the way sometimes people eat pizza Hawaii and then you have to swear.

00:17:02: that is one thing for sure

00:17:04: about this yeah?

00:17:06: That's for sure.

00:17:07: You hear my Italian swearing.

00:17:09: if you eat that in front of me

00:17:11: I will never ever But i love them as a kid.

00:17:19: So we spoke bit bout your career already.

00:17:21: I just wanted to speak a little bit about the time you grew up in Bergamo, beautiful city sadly.

00:17:30: The world came to know during the early days of the pandemic for heartbreaking reasons.

00:17:36: but when you think back to your own childhood there which was... ...a few years before the pandemic yeah what comes to mind first?

00:17:47: What did Bergamo mean to you growing up?

00:17:51: oh i think It's always been like to me.

00:17:55: Bergamo is all we associate with my family I mean still now.

00:17:58: Like Bergamo his family and I mean, I Always Now appreciate it even more maybe didn't then?

00:18:05: that is like this culture everywhere in Italy.

00:18:08: So I love like art a lot of museum.

00:18:10: I loved like history And dad is like II believe comes from where grew up.

00:18:18: There's like this old city, there are ancient walls from the Venetian times.

00:18:23: If you've never been here go and visit it!

00:18:25: There is a Ryanair flight flying directly over there... It definitely isn't sponsored by Bergamo, Kamsil or whatever either but I think its really cute city, and it's also makes access to like Milan or I could go to Milan whenever i wanted even when i didn't have a car.

00:18:47: I would take a bus.

00:18:48: then one hour was there And theres all the buzzes and all the multi-culture...I've always been curious of different perspective which i had access too in my childhood obviously..i didnt live in New York but still able to get like different input and that is always something I take with me.

00:19:09: And, i guess this makes you a strong product leader?

00:19:14: Yeah!

00:19:14: I mean curiosity.

00:19:15: it's always something that... ...I lead with.

00:19:18: Like.. ..always try to ask that extra question or try understand the extra.

00:19:23: why.

00:19:24: So you've been that annoying kid and always ask why.

00:19:28: I should ask my mom, i actually don't remember but maybe what she told me is that i was opinionated.

00:19:38: That's something.

00:19:40: even later on when i got the first big CPO role The CEO told to have so many opinions You think about things how they should be done Right like.

00:19:52: that's what she told me.

00:19:53: That was actually literally the same thing than my mom has told me for my entire life, so something there?

00:19:59: So where do these strong opinions come from?

00:20:02: Oh god I don't know.

00:20:03: they just have them!

00:20:04: They pop up

00:20:06: and is it...that you'd say..so how did you learn to balance then with data?

00:20:11: basically or do need data to develop your opinion?

00:20:19: grew up in that like the, my I grew.

00:20:22: In The way i handle My strong opinions because I remember Like sometimes I That's a really great.

00:20:30: I don't know where the opinion come from but it Really feel passionate about something.

00:20:37: and then when?

00:20:37: When I was younger I Was just passionate as I will try to argue.

00:20:41: I mean I remember like With like school or with my friends, really long discussion about arguing.

00:20:49: About something because I wanted to prove my point?

00:20:52: Because that was my strong opinion... With maybe when i grow up getting older whatever.. Like it started to start with my opinions but they're taking in other perspective To mold an opinion and go forward!

00:21:06: I still have some strongly held opinion some of which like, you know I apply in my life and in my work but i became better at holding the vision trust-the process.

00:21:21: Like hold your opinion... But it can swing a little bit depending on what other come add to it.

00:21:29: Would you say that there's a lot of intuition involved?

00:21:34: Yeah or maybe intuition.. Maybe we'll call values.

00:21:37: I think my strongest opinions come from my deep values.

00:21:42: Like, i get really like...i have curiosity and working together in collaboration as a strong value And i have lots of strong opinion based on that.

00:21:56: If someone just tells me to do this because they say so.. ..I go ballistic kind of in the head.

00:22:07: get like why and why?

00:22:08: And when there's only, oh because I say so then my strong opinions are that we cannot work together.

00:22:16: But the belief comes a bit maybe from experience but the root of them is probably values.

00:22:23: Where did you get your values

00:22:25: from?

00:22:27: That was in this planet earth for about forty-two years i guess.

00:22:32: Definitely some come.

00:22:34: I've been working a lot with this, my coach last year.

00:22:40: Because I mean, it's like values.

00:22:41: Where do they come?

00:22:42: Why do you believe now is going to get philosophical but why do we live in what he believed and why did you think this is right than this is wrong?

00:22:49: And obviously some of them are your family or the people who admire things that have been living their life The book you read, the things that influence everything around.

00:23:04: But obviously...I also realized there were some values carried with me because of my family, Because Of My Italian Culture.

00:23:16: Like one of these is like.

00:23:17: I have this really strong sense of when I commit to some integrity but maybe sometimes need it goes over the edge.

00:23:29: Can you give an example for that?

00:23:31: Yeah i can.

00:23:33: For example, last year you said there was a CPO of this really big company in Sweden and I've been there for like six years.

00:23:41: And it's being like really...I don't regret that thing about the experience.

00:23:46: I'm really grateful to do it.

00:23:49: I learned alot but still think back on all things i have done there.

00:23:53: But on paper..i realized at some point That I wasn't happy anymore And then I had like this.

00:24:04: okay, but i cannot give up.

00:24:07: This work is title you know?

00:24:11: Like it's like...I have these titles and values that are connected with a specific role in the company or aura around them.

00:24:22: if they

00:24:23: do..

00:24:24: If I do, and i'm not...I've always thought about myself of not- I don't care but never cared about titles.

00:24:31: Yeah the only thing that I have status are my Prada bags because they love them.

00:24:37: so yeah..that's my fashion!

00:24:39: But apart from that it is like.

00:24:43: I realized that one of the reasons, it was not much.

00:24:47: I thought about status but one reason back to value and culture is i would let down my mom because you achieve all this year like we told you go there get in when your getting give up actually won.

00:25:08: breaking moment for like, me to have the decision of actually giving it up is when I was talking with my mom and she told me It's okay.

00:25:18: You know?

00:25:19: The important thing is that you're happy.

00:25:21: Yeah And if your'e happy Like She said...like..she also did her own things That she took a job that was against Her dad back in the days which Was A big Thing Which Is like..you need To be Happy.

00:25:31: Who cares!

00:25:32: I mean Your val- like.

00:25:33: i don't value you because Of that title.

00:25:35: yeah

00:25:37: That together with my husband saying, oh no worries like whatever I got your back and someone else.

00:25:42: you know all the support system but that's one example.

00:25:46: Unconsciously i was holding on to something because they thought that would let down my up bringing if i wouldn't make a choice.

00:25:56: yeah yeah In the first place guest that your mom never understood what chief product officers.

00:26:05: Yeah, she doesn't.

00:26:06: it still doesn't know what I do for a living but she knows that i'm some kind of manager right like this position.

00:26:15: opposition thinks you got it.

00:26:16: so he

00:26:17: understood the opt out.

00:26:18: yeah Yeah, you just gave me the perfect segue.

00:26:27: We're saying it's more philosophical philosophical question Which I probably should not open up because you studied philosophy right?

00:26:36: Did

00:26:37: yeah Why did he choose that?

00:26:42: Because i love to think That's an odd answer but thats literally like When I had a battle with my dad.

00:26:51: He really wanted me be lawyer.

00:26:54: I was really good at school.

00:26:55: Is he a lawyer?

00:26:56: No, not at all.

00:26:57: that's what you wanted to.

00:26:58: it wasn't with us anymore but like he thought the lawyer because they were really cool and said okay this is the best job for him as a lawyer should mean no i hate I don't want to do that.

00:27:16: And i had a big fight with him, and what I wanted to do is like study something that will allow me think into debate... ...and have my opinions on all of this.

00:27:27: Then I studied philosophy in communication which everyone was like are you crazy?

00:27:32: What kind of work can we get

00:27:36: from it!

00:27:37: Yeah, that's not super yeah.

00:27:38: Maybe sometimes I wish it was a politician considering the politicians we have nowadays but Other than

00:27:45: never thought about it that way for me It's more like i'm happy i'm not a politician because of the politicians We have today.

00:27:52: so

00:27:52: think is be the change you want to see in The world right?

00:27:55: So some times and like.

00:27:57: But then no No, i'm gonna go there tells

00:27:59: a lot about your mindset.

00:28:01: Like that i'm NOT going to go there.

00:28:04: I'm so grateful that they studied philosophy because really gave me a way of thinking about thinking.

00:28:10: And love the Hegel when it was in school, like and you know he's the one saying philosophy is dead.

00:28:16: That why i love him Because there are questioning all things Like questioning his own profession kind-of thing.

00:28:23: Ah yeah...and then in arts what does an expressionist paint only black?

00:28:32: No, I love like.

00:28:34: one of my favorites have always been Renoir because I can stay.

00:28:39: Like literally when it was like My first trip that I pay with money and went to France And then I stayed at the Orangerie and see the huge Nymphéas from Monet.

00:28:52: Then i went to the Museo d'Orsay To see the Renoir of this paint and it's like those greens is just, they blow my mind.

00:29:04: I know someone are thinking why do you stare one hour at one painting?

00:29:07: And there was no Instagram, I don't care about the picture.

00:29:10: It gives me so much joy

00:29:12: to look at these things.

00:29:13: You don't scroll into a picture on the wall

00:29:15: Definitely.

00:29:16: But then i also really liked modern art.

00:29:19: I liked Marina Bramovich performance.

00:29:22: I liked the Fontana All that people think oh!

00:29:26: could have done that.

00:29:27: Yeah but he didn't.

00:29:28: That all Art of it, right?

00:29:30: You didn't think about cutting a... And

00:29:32: we all could have developed Facebook.

00:29:35: Sure!

00:29:35: We just

00:29:35: didn't.

00:29:36: Yeah exactly I could've done but you didn't.

00:29:38: yeah absolutely do art yourself.

00:29:44: I'm going back, like a terrible at...I do things.

00:29:49: Like to craft things i've always had..like used to do jewelry and earrings and necklaces for my friend.

00:29:56: Did sometimes paint.

00:29:58: I do sketching now try go back just because they think it's.

00:30:02: you know I'd like develop that part of the brain but not good at writing maybe?

00:30:08: But don't think its art

00:30:12: Not sure one could think about it as I think there are many writers who would see them self-as artists.

00:30:18: Yeah, yeah Absolutely.

00:30:21: um i was wondering like everything i heard now About your upbringing and uh Your studies and so forth?

00:30:31: I didn't hear So much tech interest so far.

00:30:37: When did that come into your life?

00:30:39: because you are now, You've been CPO of a highly technical product.

00:30:43: Right?

00:30:44: And uh...you had Uh..You've been in the gaming industry if I remember correctly um.. Highly technical products as well.

00:30:52: So what was Your first touch point with technology?

00:30:58: That's when i moved to sweden i would say so.

00:31:01: twenty eleven and i'd never like To be completely honest have never been interested.

00:31:08: I cannot say tech is my passion.

00:31:10: I mean, it's like one of my interests and when you think about product management is like Tech Is One Piece Of It!

00:31:17: So i think its more from an holistic perspective but definitely to be super precise and accurate before... Like it was maybe twenty-nine, two thousand nine where I was still in Italy working in fashion And there were the first brands that wanted a website because especially in the fashion world, even to this day.

00:31:42: I mean it's really a lot of like physical products and experience for big brands.

00:31:48: they put alot into that.

00:31:50: I

00:31:51: started with digital there, getting in touch like okay we need to build a website.

00:31:56: How do we do it?

00:31:57: In that part.

00:31:58: but he was actually wanna move to Sweden.

00:32:02: That first job i got the translator job then became a Digital Project Manager Job and then become a Product Manager and Product Lead etc.

00:32:11: Was for gaming company Then work with e-commerce with my own things and then I ended up at Hemnet.

00:32:20: And it's there that actually started to see how you could work in the tech world.

00:32:27: also, now i don't want to say something that is inaccurate.

00:32:30: but...i dont think they were that many of those type companies in Italy back in those days.

00:32:38: I remember like, i came into a comp because games...I mean everything was digital right?

00:32:43: They were already cross-functional team.

00:32:45: they're like cross functional even to the point of customer service..like really cross functional not only engineering and I had never seen that before.

00:32:55: so there is where it started to get a glimpse of what could look like.

00:33:03: And what would you say Are you most passionate about in the context of building digital products?

00:33:11: Because he said it's not tech definitely.

00:33:14: What is that

00:33:16: to me, It's like this gonna sound like really cheesy but I'm going to say anyway uh if i come To The point That i believe my contribution Is making the people Building the product and the People using the Product happy.

00:33:32: yeah It's

00:33:33: like when you know your go to work and feel okay.

00:33:36: I'm contributing.

00:33:37: I am happy, i have my energy going in the flow both of them building so that they can provide a good experience for one using it.

00:33:47: That is what excites me alot In this.

00:33:50: there are many things.

00:33:52: obviously you will need tech Right, but you have the people.

00:33:55: You'll have the organization... ...you will have empathy with the people in the org and using it as a product.

00:34:02: You need to understand your market or needs.

00:34:05: You had to create strategies like all.

00:34:07: that I think is really... really fascinating.

00:34:11: It's a lot of like humans, it is a lot technology and long term short-term interaction with empathy motivation asking questions different things.

00:34:25: that why I really liked tech but not the only piece at least for me

00:34:36: that you focus on having happy users.

00:34:38: That's what every product manager hopefully can relate to, just play the devil's advocate when I hear happy employees.

00:34:46: is your focus?

00:34:47: Is it... Should i imagine you as a feel-good manager?

00:34:51: Oh no!

00:34:53: Lord!

00:34:55: Definitely..I think what I strive for is that people can come to me with everything, like I'm really happy if they came sometimes in into the one-on-one.

00:35:08: They're just complaining and saying thank you because we are highlighting problems right?

00:35:14: Also sometime i help them solve those problem some times i push them out.

00:35:20: so the problem themselves... I am more than one surfacing conflict To then come to a happier place.

00:35:29: also good-to-know Not everyone is happy all the time.

00:35:34: You cannot make Everyone Happy All The Time.

00:35:36: I learned that the hard way i strive to have?

00:35:39: Everyone understanding, the strategy everyone happy everyone motivated until i was like Cannot do That.

00:35:47: yeah so i try to focus Like i tried to.

00:35:50: i strive for people too.

00:35:52: Come to work Motivated and you know, you have good days.

00:35:56: And you have bad days.

00:35:57: in some days You're gonna hate me as some days are going to love it mean like but at the end of today I think i hope that people That work with me or happy?

00:36:07: In overall to work With me But is not always reading

00:36:09: what People write about you.

00:36:11: i guess that's guaranteed that you've achieved that.

00:36:14: yeah Or maybe not, you know like the reviews or things.

00:36:18: Like only good ones will write.

00:36:20: but I mean... I do have good... I also pay for the reviews.

00:36:25: No no!

00:36:26: And i don't and i know a lot of people.

00:36:29: You can feel it..I mean you cannot fake that.

00:36:31: But i also know some people they couldn´t work with.

00:36:35: So if they would write something They wouldn´t be so happy.

00:36:39: words.

00:36:40: Yeah, there's this saying.

00:36:43: I don't know who said it first but that's around.

00:36:46: It is super hard to motivate people while its super easy to frustrate them right?

00:36:53: Oh yeah for sure!

00:36:56: Tell me about the why pizza and get frustrated directly.

00:36:59: so...

00:37:00: Then you lose all your motivation.

00:37:02: But i think theres truth in terms of extrinsic motivation will never be as powerful as intrinsic motivation.

00:37:11: If you have someone who's not intrinsically motivated, You will not motivate them as a manager.

00:37:20: or I could also spin further depending on what your intrinsic motivation is.

00:37:26: for example if your intrinsic Motivation is like that i need to shine person, right?

00:37:32: Yeah.

00:37:33: That's what I want to achieve that i am the one above everyone else

00:37:37: yeah

00:37:37: but then when we're trying like that's back to one of my values.

00:37:40: What were trying to do here is that We worked in this together because they've never seen products succeeding with only one opinion Because it's so complicated.

00:37:50: if you already have that intrinsic motivation Probably I cannot work really well With You

00:37:57: Absolutely, and I think that's your.

00:38:00: the first thing every leader needs to do is understanding.

00:38:02: The motivation of their employees can see how to leverage that for they are career or for the best off the company in the first place.

00:38:12: but yeah there might be motivations that just don't help in these kinds

00:38:16: of jobs.

00:38:17: Speaking of things that don't help.

00:38:19: Can you think of something?

00:38:21: You had to unlearn during your career or maybe after growing up in Bergamo, studying in Milano.

00:38:30: Yeah I think a lot of culture like changing culture was one thing have two like the Was really used to direct feedback only in Italy.

00:38:42: all most only negative feedback, so you will never... Oh!

00:38:47: You'll hear if you did something wrong.

00:38:50: You would really hear loud and clear but not that much If do something right.

00:38:55: And then in Sweden Sounds

00:38:57: like Germany to me.

00:38:58: Yeah But I mean That's where everything from my mind.

00:39:03: now you here Like, you know the stereotypical Italian moms yelling at you.

00:39:08: That's right!

00:39:09: And then have it in school and like work... It is cultural.

00:39:13: Then go to Sweden where they hear a lot how good your are even if you... Excuse my French, fuck up.

00:39:21: I did some fuck ups but of course he didn't mean that.

00:39:25: But do tell me?

00:39:27: You can not say I was doing well If i wasn´t Which of course, but I mean you also have to have the conversation on why it was

00:39:40: wrong.

00:39:42: Exactly so that doesn't really happen organically right.

00:39:46: that's like how to.

00:39:48: that is my feedback as an example of how to interface myself with people was really different in another culture.

00:39:55: And also a really different as I was working in tech.

00:39:59: we probably all have us know alot of different nationality come in, Like for fast forward some years, I'm CPO at a company.

00:40:10: Always went to demos and always ask question.

00:40:14: everyone know like even showing features like asking questions just to understand an eye.

00:40:20: don't know that.

00:40:21: i dont expect you act on that.

00:40:23: it's just like its demo.

00:40:25: but I had people in the receiving end of this coming from culture like for example India or China where Because I had the title, and a question that just went out.

00:40:37: And did whatever i said in the demo right.

00:40:40: so That was another thing like unlearn.

00:40:42: be mindful clarify your intention yeah?

00:40:45: Then In general as a product person all the different Companies that are work for always have to learn what my job Was.

00:40:56: i think this is one of Like The good Thing and the Curses of Product Manager.

00:41:00: we have like similar titles, but really different jobs depending on where you are.

00:41:06: So I'm learning what work there doesn't work here because ABCDEF and then I was supposed to do one type of job right now.

00:41:18: so it's as part my process that the first time i had basically how I operate by keeping like the principle, values at the core.

00:41:37: Yeah can fully relate to that as yeah i've been a project manager myself in the earlier days of my career and yes there's lot too unlearn when you come from project management And also when you get promoted from your individual contributor role into a management role, there's a lot to unlearn because what made you good product manager is not necessarily makes feel good.

00:42:06: Product leader

00:42:07: for sure and it's like that.

00:42:10: he's also something at least in my case.

00:42:13: I became all the sudden most senior product person in the company.

00:42:19: But and obviously I mean they were senior leaders, but no senior product leaders.

00:42:24: And i had to like learn the hard way Like something like you know what made me good?

00:42:30: Like I couldn't go in and fix The product things myself right.

00:42:35: it's like your job becomes people's job.

00:42:38: Yeah

00:42:38: To seventy percent.

00:42:40: and then obviously In the people job if You Know the craft you should know the craft to guide them Doing or like guiding others doing it.

00:42:51: Yeah, and if I could go back?

00:42:53: I would like ask for help much earlier.

00:42:57: That's something that I didn't do.

00:42:58: And you know having a coach having a mentor have is somebody liked to bounce ideas with?

00:43:04: i thought i should figure out myself and there was my Responsibility and if i would ask her how people will think oh she doesn't Have her shit together.

00:43:12: so why does she even have this job right?

00:43:14: but yeah i was.

00:43:16: I wish she knew that before and i wish we would talk more about this kind of things because you don't have to figure it all out together.

00:43:23: Like, um... You didn't have figured out by yourself?

00:43:26: Yeah

00:43:27: yeah absolutely

00:43:29: but what do they say was the key ingredient then.. And I think your referring too.

00:43:35: at the time you've been CPO at Hamnet if I get right which first well had an impressive IPO, which you contributed to and also became one of the top ten ranked Swedish apps.

00:43:52: I think so One Of The Most Loved Apps in Sweden.

00:43:59: What would she say was your key ingredient?

00:44:01: Because from what i understand is You Never Wrote Tickets And Stuff So You Didn't Do The Product Manager Job Yourself Would You Say Made.

00:44:10: Did you do so that the product in the end was successful?

00:44:14: To be super fair, I mean the products itself like has been around for many years.

00:44:19: Like Hamnet found it in ninety-eight.

00:44:23: So i mean app positioning and product positioning.

00:44:27: all those parts were really in place with none of us working there on these days created this part.

00:44:38: but The key ingredient for that success was really understanding how to put the product, the organization around a product.

00:44:49: Let's put it like that It was a pivotal moment in the company because has been run by brokers for long time and To be honest I didn't care about product development In that sense.

00:45:04: And then when he was acquired By risk capitalists there were All new expectations, but the org was not like.

00:45:12: there was a huge gap between expectation and reality.

00:45:16: And key success is creating the org that could actually deliver on the expectation.

00:45:24: I mean all of things in hand side as you said are about to say sound obvious or easy?

00:45:35: But those are difficult.

00:45:36: one like talking about priorities.

00:45:40: Taking away, how do you align all the teams in a way that they know what to work on?

00:45:45: How we take things out of them and start with customers or different requests... you know, the engine behind what we actually want to grow.

00:45:58: How do we talk with each other?

00:46:02: how do we structure our teams?

00:46:03: like all these basics?

00:46:05: right but that's What We Did step by step not All At Once But Step By Step.

00:46:11: and That The Rest Of History

00:46:13: Yeah And Very Successful History.

00:46:17: There Is One Overwatching Theme In That Season of the podcast and that is intuition.

00:46:24: And that's why I asked you so many questions around intuition already, um...and i would want to dive just for a couple minutes deeper into that one.

00:46:34: So what do you think?

00:46:36: Is there space for intuition in product management.

00:46:39: Oh yes We should sharpen it.

00:46:42: You call it intuition or mix of curiosity and experience.

00:46:47: Intuition doesn't come from nowhere And I think it's like, is actually the muscle that we have to sharpen even more.

00:46:56: Because if you think about all GPTs of this word... The data is there but the data doesn't know your context and customer or orgs.. All those come from intuition.

00:47:09: so thats only a way where everyone can bridge what gets out of their GPT something successful.

00:47:17: What you just said sounds a bit to me Product sense as well.

00:47:21: Yeah, is

00:47:22: that what you would refer to us like?

00:47:24: Is it that equal to intuition or is there a difference?

00:47:27: I mean i don't.

00:47:27: i wouldn yeah product sense but i think in the more broader way i Mean doesn't only have to be connected with product Per se.

00:47:40: Can you elaborate on them

00:47:41: yet?

00:47:41: and then i'm thinking i mean obviously its products sense In The Way Like You've Been There You're Done.

00:47:45: That's Like You can See Through patterns or like whatever.

00:47:50: but it's also, for example on an organizational level.

00:47:55: Like you can maybe start seeing some behavior happening that you see before, and then you can anticipate probably what will be the next step based on your intuition because you created an experience.

00:48:06: That not per se connected with a product?

00:48:08: You could may be seen through people like it's more in a broader sense of connecting and seeing patterns Not only necessarily on the products You don't see his face, but he's skeptical.

00:48:24: So if you're also sceptical...

00:48:26: No I'm just taking in thoughts and thinking that i am processing And learning.

00:48:34: so thats what I look like when I listen carefully.

00:48:39: I look like i'm angry or whatever, skeptical.

00:48:45: Got that feedback from

00:48:46: my former

00:48:46: employees a couple of times.

00:48:47: so you see that imaginary Super transparent old answering machine here on the table between two of us where some folks who'd been here for the first season off the podcast left questions.

00:49:08: For the guests in the second season around to topic of intuition and This guy, I think you

00:49:16: know him.

00:49:16: Yeah?

00:49:17: Oh now i'm scared!

00:49:20: I'm scared of his... I pointed

00:49:21: to the picture on the wall.

00:49:23: so it's Dominik Jost that your going here with his question.

00:49:31: My name is Dominik and

00:49:32: my questions for you are

00:49:33: how do you distinguish between a bold intuitive leap and reckless overconfidence?

00:49:40: I probably ask people like if they have gut feel or intuition And I'm like, this obviously my gut tells me that is right.

00:49:52: Which tells me something but maybe it would be too risky to reckless or whatever probably the thing that i do and go around and bounce that idea

00:50:01: with your colleagues?

00:50:02: With my...I mean depending on in which context It Is Right.

00:50:06: But I Mean..It Could Be With My Friend If Its Private if it's like one reckless or intuition or reckless, starting my own company.

00:50:16: So I started to...I had that real gut feel and was like is this an intuition?

00:50:21: That i should be doing these things just putting myself in deep waters?

00:50:26: And then I start to understand more talk with people With some of my friends There you get as well their gut feel especially if they have been around on the same topic right so in the company.

00:50:47: If your like it's a reckless move, You take those leaders that work in the same space?

00:50:51: You're probably gonna get if there got align or not.

00:50:54: and So that's how I would approach It

00:50:57: which i guess requires That first of all learning mindset and your willingness to share into learn from the feedback of others is there.

00:51:12: And also you have created a space in the work environment where people would speak up if they disagree on their only argument is that gut feeling because we don't have data to argue or stuff, it sounds like you built such an environment.

00:51:30: how do you do that?

00:51:32: A lot of time.

00:51:33: Let's just be really clear.

00:51:36: It's a lot of time sweat and tears to go into.

00:51:39: I mean, it's like its human Relationship right.

00:51:42: so they don't.

00:51:44: is not this lack message.

00:51:45: I mean Is that you have to sit with those people?

00:51:47: You'll have two Here too their complaint.

00:51:50: You have to be helpful to them Like not only go there and say no like you'd really have to empathize With them.

00:51:57: That's the only way that I know to do it.

00:52:01: So what I understand is you need a long time to build trust so that they are going to speak up if they disagree.

00:52:08: Yeah, and also like...I think they also need to trust YOU both that you are your shit.

00:52:17: They trust you as the leader.

00:52:19: but also even in this case we're testing intuition.

00:52:26: let's say that I will test with you to be as is like, do You have two feel?

00:52:30: That even if you come To me would something that it's got field not data back then whatever.

00:52:35: i'm Not gonna go around and Say oh to BS.

00:52:37: tell Me also Like this If This doesn't Go As It Should right?

00:52:41: no know if I Have your Back if We Know Like we Work With Each Other or if We Have Created Up That Working Relationship Then It Works.

00:52:49: if You just like Tiny bit Question if I would go around and speak behind your back or like put you under the train, Or whatever a. You're not gonna give me your honest opinion.

00:53:02: And be you're not going to even want to talk with me?

00:53:05: Yeah So trust is both super powerful and super fragile.

00:53:11: yeah absolutely Absolutely.

00:53:13: one last question maybe from another guest on the topic of intuition want to look a bit into the future, but I realize you mentioned your own business a couple of times.

00:53:25: But we never spoke about what is it actually?

00:53:28: What is good question?

00:53:31: It's advisory.

00:53:33: so i do product advisory cpo fractional and coaching more on right now and doing more in our individual level that I'm exploring during an organizational level

00:53:47: Excellent.

00:53:47: So you are basically sharing your experience with other people and spreading the word?

00:53:54: That's right!

00:53:55: Yeah, cool And do like it.

00:53:57: so far...

00:53:58: So far so good.

00:54:01: You didn't regret moving from a safe full-time employee.

00:54:06: It depends on day.

00:54:07: obviously I mean let not sugarcoat.

00:54:09: this is no walk in park but i think my north star was my own energy.

00:54:17: And so far, so good.

00:54:19: Like I've been learning a lot gaining a lot of energy having the chance already working with like a lot different people which they didn't have when it was full-time job and that really value.

00:54:33: What is part you don't value?

00:54:36: Oh!

00:54:37: Talking about unlearning...I completely unlearn how i operate.

00:54:42: It's like..i'm not great at doing sales For myself, so that's there is a part

00:54:49: of your comfort zone.

00:54:50: Yeah?

00:54:51: Which also could be good.

00:54:53: but I mean...I don't really value the power that i cannot control like not controlled But plan my work in the way used to because it much more dependent on others.

00:55:06: And then obviously theres uncertainty That its an all other level compared with like full-time job?

00:55:17: Definitely, yeah.

00:55:19: But fingers crossed first

00:55:22: of all that everything

00:55:24: runs smooth and as desired... ...and as deserved.

00:55:29: I

00:55:31: promised one last question from a previous guest And i bet you know her as well.

00:55:37: No!

00:55:37: I don't bet..I KNOW YOU KNOW HER AS WELL.

00:55:40: At least you spoke to her yesterday.

00:55:46: My name is Petra Ville and my question to you, can your

00:55:50: coach or train for

00:55:52: intuition?

00:55:53: I think that in a way as a product leader working with someone on the other side being much more intentional of which kind.

00:56:06: data point you take into your decision, we're always asking like what does that?

00:56:11: Like the data tells this.

00:56:12: The customers tell us this pattern turned is... What does your intuition tell?

00:56:18: You put it there putting in they are more explicit.

00:56:23: I think kind

00:56:24: of a valid data point do say

00:56:26: That but also will make you think more about because i think theres one component thats some people.

00:56:36: Guts is not a piece of the puzzle in how we make decision and product management or even trying to work against people taking guts decision by building some cases.

00:56:48: so I think you have two counteract that.

00:56:51: By saying okay, were not only going with guts but dead could also be strong differentiator for us to be able to move fast, different from competitors who differentiates ourselves etc.

00:57:05: But then you need make it explicit and you needed to validate it.

00:57:10: Yes we read a lot about product management.

00:57:14: is the out of deciding in uncertainty?

00:57:19: That means that data doesn't tell you.

00:57:21: And thats the room where I need decide based on your gut feeling or intuition

00:57:28: Definitely, but I think when if we just take that sentence you took like We need to be able to decide with uncertain uncertain circumstances right?

00:57:39: I bet.

00:57:40: I don't know.

00:57:40: You'll tell hardly as When you listen to this But I bet many people had go directly.

00:57:46: okay i don't have enough data, but that's enough.

00:57:48: But they didn't think about filling the gap.

00:57:51: does anyone doesn't always have to be me like?

00:57:55: also teaching intuition is about you, but also asking for intuition from someone else who has the most likely could be like okay we don't have enough data.

00:58:04: Who hasn in this company or outside if I have that reach more experience about these kind of thing let's go talk with her.

00:58:12: off him.

00:58:14: yeah what their intuition would do?

00:58:16: they say.

00:58:16: what did they learn?

00:58:17: Like there already a way of feeling the uncertainty With intuition, but I bet a lot of people will stop out.

00:58:25: We don't have enough data.

00:58:26: we have to take decision anyway without

00:58:30: yeah Without trying to fill the gap with some

00:58:33: something else

00:58:34: Something else?

00:58:35: Yeah makes complete sense.

00:58:36: But what i also see is there's many People who get lost in analysis paralysis and

00:58:41: just

00:58:41: think we Don't have Enough Data.

00:58:43: we need more data because they expect The data To decide for them.

00:58:49: And I think the term of data-driven product management is so misleading because it should never be data driven.

00:58:55: It should be data informed

00:58:57: for sure,

00:58:57: yeah Okay No no discussion

00:59:02: here plus one or two?

00:59:04: Yeah, and definitely not trigger here.

00:59:06: Completely agree.

00:59:07: what do you think of pizza?

00:59:08: why We're running out of time unfortunately as you need to catch your

00:59:15: Fly

00:59:16: back to Stockholm.

00:59:18: So the last topic I always wanted to speak about and we can cut that short is a look into future and talk bit about AI,

00:59:27: of course you

00:59:28: cannot ignore these days guess?

00:59:32: And one question i had because you wrote in spoke abit about time moving to Sweden and having to learn a new language, experiencing the Language Barrier.

00:59:46: And I think it's clear that this barrier will no longer exist in a couple of years when AI will fully... In real time translate languages, voice whatever, and language would be removed as a limitation or even power dynamic.

01:00:10: What do you think about that development particularly?

01:00:13: Not sure.

01:00:14: I agree That will become like we probably might have some apps or whatever, but I mean Language goes.

01:00:24: Like I think learning You know if you think the day AI yeah Probably it would allow you to exchange sentences.

01:00:33: Right, like I would love to go Japan and they are...I personally think that one of the good thing in the cursing or being there is not understanding a thing.

01:00:44: That's what i liked about it but I mean.. I'd love be able have conversation with an old lady from small village right?

01:00:51: And then maybe if we had which already exist on us Google translate app.

01:00:56: But no-one uses this way.

01:01:00: Maybe technology will become easier and we'll get there, but the thing that I think you miss if only rely on technology to communicate is so many nuances out of language.

01:01:14: And also from my part understanding learning in a language... You learn more about culture?

01:01:21: That's completely wiped away!

01:01:25: Probably it will help us.

01:01:26: It will facilitate as we would use it much more like to exchange Like in a dialogue, maybe this podcast can be translated is like.

01:01:36: you know I don't know all the language of The word like at the click.

01:01:39: that would be amazing because then We can have more opinions out there.

01:01:43: But i think That if the Language You Use Is To Be Able To Being Part Of The Culture If You Live There If You Have To Work With The Company Then I think there is a lot of value still to be able to like get to understand through the language The people that you work with.

01:02:03: Definitely and i was always thinking about it's that vision Of having real-time translation into any language basically in empowering everybody on earth To speak every language.

01:02:15: Is then utopia or dystopia?

01:02:17: Yeah, just gave me an idea that it actually might be a dystopia, because speaking the language technically.

01:02:28: Might even lead to more misunderstandings between people when they don't understand what this sentence really means in the culture.

01:02:36: so yeah and there's also a lot of everyone who speaks another language at their own.

01:02:42: I personally think and some like the nuances of the words.

01:02:49: I still feel that they, even though I fluently speak Swedish and English... ...I miss them!

01:02:56: Like there is a person on the other side who corrects me because we have good enough relationship to say okay when you said it sounds like sometimes he says only lady talks or this is too formal or not formal enough.

01:03:14: It's hard to get those or maybe technology will get there.

01:03:18: But I mean, it think is gonna be really really hard

01:03:20: yeah?

01:03:20: Yeah, it's really really hot and i always fear that Don't know I say some things even in that podcast because of my native language which might insult people or is inappropriate.

01:03:35: Yeah, it's not our native language but we can communicate although you're Italian and German for

01:03:41: sure no.

01:03:41: but i just like one further thought like spinning from the language perspective.

01:03:47: I think that all AI, what i'm thinking a lot about is we're gonna have possibilities right?

01:03:55: Languages or no languages but we have to be putting more curiosity and attention on what those tools help us with and how they work because if you know how their works then we can leverage them.

01:04:13: If We don't Know How They Work Then we're just like blindly trusting a box.

01:04:18: Yeah translating or whatever, right?

01:04:21: For example in the language language example will be able to you know set The tone.

01:04:26: We'll be able To double check the tone Will Be able to give the other person Like feedback like yeah would that be it?

01:04:33: Or is like I put A prompt and then It speaks And i don't Know.

01:04:36: maybe i'm deadly offending the Other Person like on the other side of the room

01:04:43: of sketches we see on YouTube.

01:04:45: Yeah,

01:04:45: because I mean i think that is like.

01:04:48: it's so convenient... Like the chat GPTs our world are so convenient and they're getting democratized with more people using them but its' more a go-in.

01:05:00: click in something then get something out.

01:05:03: don't apply my critical thinking.

01:05:06: thats okay.

01:05:08: worst case oh send an email not good or do like fake news on steroids.

01:05:16: But it can also be when companies are forcing people to use AI without understanding what the AI does, then Difficult, like people working.

01:05:29: Like I love strategy right?

01:05:32: Oh you can do your strategy with AI.

01:05:35: for the first it's... It

01:05:37: will give you

01:05:39: a strategy but what kind of... Even park one second on that old thing to have people onboard and actually do a strategy.

01:05:47: Right.

01:05:48: Even the strategy that you get out of an LLM right now, it's only based on The competitor to the LLm.

01:05:55: things are your competitors?

01:05:56: They're public data they available.

01:05:59: like he doesn't think You know any in you cannot expect innovation from there, right and if you if you don't think That's Literally like computing words and data and give you the next most plausible thing.

01:06:14: And if you do not know And you think that is your strategy and it feels right like but what are you doing?

01:06:20: Yeah,

01:06:21: all dad I think its like.

01:06:23: It's gonna become so important

01:06:25: when i fail in the company runs bankrupt bankrupt.

01:06:29: i can at least blame the sure

01:06:30: this was chats to the gpts problem.

01:06:33: right

01:06:33: yeah not my fault, I trust

01:06:35: it.

01:06:35: We can put those in the contract!

01:06:38: It's like blame me on an open AI or whomever... Exactly

01:06:42: what i can highly recommend is speaking with chativity about ChatGbt.

01:06:48: Letting ChatGBT explain how it works underneath the hood and you can have a nice philosophical discussion as result of that as well.

01:06:59: one last sentence completion to wrap up.

01:07:01: Yeah, super quick.

01:07:02: If I had AI back in the days when i started in product?

01:07:06: I would have

01:07:09: created a GPT of all Marty Kagan's books.

01:07:16: So you're big fan.

01:07:18: and then that Back In The Days like There was the way That I started to understand.

01:07:24: I could wrap my head around things.

01:07:29: so if I Would Have Had Like kind of like, you know this GPT when you can chat with Mari based on the content of his book.

01:07:36: It probably would have saved me time.

01:07:40: I would still read it.

01:07:42: i don't think there's a shortcut.

01:07:43: that's how i retain information.

01:07:48: but is was more like these because they cannot.

01:07:51: i Probably could not have had access to him in The Flash than having someone who has that type of advice Because he didn't have anyone around with that kind of experience.

01:08:03: So Marty's books inspired and powered and transformed you?

01:08:08: Yeah, to be honest the transform one now is gonna be.

01:08:12: I know... That's the one interesting obviously but that's the ones less relevant for me.

01:08:18: The most impactful was definitely Inspired.

01:08:21: But because it was first product book i ever read There were nobody around talking about these things.

01:08:28: there was no body around operating in this way back in my days and that kind of like was an eye-opener for sure.

01:08:37: Yeah, unfortunately I could speak for another two hours.

01:08:41: it's been super interesting Francesca thank you so much for being on the show.

01:08:48: That was nice.

01:09:09: That was episode three of puttok mentioned podcast season two.

01:09:13: I hope you enjoyed it just as much As i did and if You now want to help a little bit this podcast then collect some calmer points.

01:09:22: please help spreading the word And tell your friends, and colleagues about It on social media or linkedin in Your offices wherever.

01:09:30: You prefer Subscribe In your favorite podcast app for sure leave A five star rating and review in your favorite podcast app or subscribe to the newsletter on ProduktMension.de.

01:09:44: I'm also pretty curious about your thoughts and hear what you think of today's episode, so please feel free to shoot me an email at www.produktmansion.de.

01:09:58: Looking forward to hearing from you!

01:10:00: And i hope that you'll tune in for next episodes – see ya then!

01:10:21: by Hay Clarity.

01:10:22: We help company leaders build strong product organizations!

01:10:26: Find out how we can help you at hay-clarity.com.