#2.4 Kai Stevens, Product Lead and Discovery Doctor

00:00:00: There's one word that describes it for me, and I call it fervous.

00:00:05: But i think the foundation of navigating that complexity is always positivity.

00:00:10: if you ask me... What's a little bit the issue with Scrum?

00:00:15: It has many mis-implementations.

00:00:19: That year studying to become history teacher gave my energy in making the next step into product career.

00:00:27: As soon as your device starts running off the conveyor belt in mass production, there is no way back anymore.

00:00:44: Moin from Hamburg and welcome to yet another episode of Product Mention – The podcast that meets people behind our products!

00:00:51: I'm you host Tobias von Reich, co-founder of Head Clarity & product leadership coach.

00:00:56: If you've listened to previous episodes this season You'll know intuition has already taken us into some fascinating places.

00:01:03: Marty Kagan, Martin Erickson and Francesca Cortesi each brought their very own distinct perspective to the conversation.

00:01:10: But I don't think of these episodes as repeating this same question – i have thought about them slowly circling a complex idea from different sides… And today's guest opens up yet another angle one that I've been especially curious to explore!

00:01:25: So...I won't keep you any longer.. I hope you enjoy THIS conversation just AS much as I did.

00:01:59: Today's

00:02:01: guest is one of those rare product people who combine sharp thinking with a genuine big heart.

00:02:07: And can talk about hardware, IoT and value streams and passion that most of us reserve for talking about our favorite vacation spots.

00:02:18: I first met him when i had the pleasure to coach him a couple years ago, already back then it was plain obvious.

00:02:24: he's someone who brings empathy clarity confidence and joy into every room he walks in too be it virtually or physically.

00:02:33: For more than fifteen years hes navigated some of the most complex product landscapes.

00:02:38: you can imagine hardware, software firm where regulations supply chains energy systems you name it and he's still one of the humbles person I know which already makes him a minor miracle in nowadays worlds.

00:02:54: Today he's the founder of Discovery Doctors, a product discovery coach.

00:02:59: A long-time P.O trainer and former product leader in IoT & Energy and person whose very first LinkedIn post wasn't about an impressive achievement but charity fundraiser.

00:03:12: that tells you pretty much everything about his sense of ethics and responsibility.

00:03:17: I'm really happy to have here today.

00:03:19: Welcome to the show Kai Stevens

00:03:22: Wow.

00:03:22: Thank you so much, Tobias!

00:03:24: That's the nicest introduction I've ever had.

00:03:28: Thanks

00:03:29: Well deserved.

00:03:30: i'd say.

00:03:32: You have the unfair advantage... ...you are the first guest who has a chance to listen in an episode of this season and is prepared for what's coming now.

00:03:43: So we already know that We start with a few sentence completions.

00:03:47: Are your ready?

00:03:52: Thinking fast.

00:03:53: Yes, I heard the episode in Marty but to be honest i forgot most of the sentences again.

00:03:58: so it's still a surprise.

00:03:59: yeah and its different sentence than it is really a surprise.

00:04:03: cool

00:04:05: The biggest difference between hardware product management and software product management Is?

00:04:11: Long timelines.

00:04:12: Product ethics to me means

00:04:17: Respecting everybody In the room!

00:04:19: The bravest decision I made in my career was

00:04:25: Hmm the braver than a quick question.

00:04:29: That's hard one to answer on there, on this pot I find it difficult to answer to be honest because if once you have done It i don't look back and say wow that was a brave decision.

00:04:42: what they did back then right

00:04:43: let again tells A lot about your personality.

00:04:45: but yeah is

00:04:47: as I really find that Difficult

00:04:49: maybe a Decision You struggled with before?

00:04:51: You took it could be an indicator that it Was kind of brave.

00:04:57: Yeah, I've always felt uncomfortable being in the center of attention.

00:05:04: I already had it as a child if i go back to my childhood so that's something I struggled with.

00:05:13: whenever there are opportunities

00:05:19: There's

00:05:20: always a voice in me that says, nah.

00:05:24: Why should you do this?

00:05:24: Right why shouldn't go there into spotlight?

00:05:27: and with the risk of I don't know what And i guess but i'm proud is said over time i learned to cherish that voice instead of pushing it away.

00:05:39: So now these things that voices still they're ended will always be their because thats my i guess my inner child having wires.

00:05:47: But I kind of learned to embrace it and was thinking this morning, there's one word that describes for me.

00:05:54: And i call it fervous.

00:05:56: Nervous in a fun way right?

00:05:59: Fervous yes!

00:06:01: I want you introduce us new term for people who hesitate taking a leap into something That makes them really nervous.

00:06:09: yeah because the moment that I learnt In my brains to associate these nerves with fun.

00:06:17: That was the moment where I could flip button and despite the nerves that are always there take opportunity, enjoy it!

00:06:46: They split the group in half and they should give a little presentation on stage.

00:06:52: And to everyone who was nervous, just at that moment before entering this stage... ...they said you are nervous because of your stage light

00:07:06: etc.,

00:07:06: That's normal!

00:07:08: You don't have to worry about it.

00:07:10: The other person said Oh wow, I can see your excitement.

00:07:16: You are very excited to go on stage right?

00:07:19: Yeah guess what the outcome was

00:07:21: yeah exactly.

00:07:22: second

00:07:22: group way better performing onstage way more confident

00:07:26: and i find it truly impressive What The Mind Can Do Right.

00:07:28: so if you wire nerves too something negative then it taps into your fears right Your fear system.

00:07:36: but If You Learn To Wire Nerves To Something Exciting Something Positive Then you tap into a totally different system, right?

00:07:44: That helps to take that leap I would say.

00:07:48: Yep!

00:07:49: I will put in the show notes one of my favorite articles from my friend Sean Russell about how to change your attention In these kind of moments like for example when Nervous, it probably doesn't help to be focused on the one stakeholder who is always shaking their heads and checking their iPhone.

00:08:12: So changing your attention in these situations can also help a lot.

00:08:16: You'll find the link in the show notes.

00:08:20: must not forget about that.

00:08:21: Let's go back to the sentence completions And I'm bit surprised you struggled answering.

00:08:29: I would have expected that you all of a sudden say leaving the full-time employment behind and being a freelancer now.

00:08:37: Yeah, um... That was the bravest decision!

00:08:41: But it wasn't quite an unnatural thing that happened right?

00:08:43: So i left Tato last year And It Was kind Of A natural moment to start my own.

00:08:52: I already had a business rights.

00:08:54: i've been part of scrim facilitated in the Netherlands But over the years, I drifted away from Scrum.

00:09:01: Um...I still want to say thank you to Scrum because for me and my career as Scrum has laid foundation of a deep understanding of the agile principles.

00:09:10: yet especially in very complex product domain where i've been i've drifted way form that.

00:09:15: so i decided to found new company thats more oriented on craft or product management.

00:09:20: uh..in whatever framework your like use it can be Scrum if u ask me but doesn't need right can be any system.

00:09:29: So it felt really natural when I knew i was leaving Tato to not just jump on the next bandwagon again, yet still in a current market situation and Also how things are in the Netherlands, I'll spare you details around that.

00:09:48: There's some tax regulations stuff or nasty stuff but boring stuff.

00:09:52: But still it impacted The position of freelancers and the Netherlands quite heavily And i started to look for my first assignment right when that happened.

00:10:02: That was at the beginning this year.

00:10:06: So in that sense it was, I have a wife and three kids.

00:10:09: Especially the three kids at their house with a mortgage etc.

00:10:12: right?

00:10:13: It's quite a leap you're making but obviously had to plan B if i would not land an assignment on time... ...I'd go back into full-time employment somewhere.

00:10:24: so I did think things through.

00:10:27: But it was quite natural to make this step also because of the realization.

00:10:34: even in permanent employment As long as you work in a scale-up environment like Tato, right?

00:10:41: What certainly does that really give you.

00:10:43: Yeah

00:10:44: Right things can.

00:10:45: the bubble can burst and you can be in this situation where you have to change position again Like I happen to me last year.

00:10:52: Absolutely

00:10:53: i mean we've seen That a lot in tech over the last two years.

00:10:56: let's say yeah Unfortunately but I still have hope that the development will flip again and we see a big trend of, like i remember just from one day to another.

00:11:10: Like before we've been crazily busy with finding talents.

00:11:14: We could hire and searching globally for those talents And hiring people all around the globe and spending crazy amounts of money And the other day, people got fired.

00:11:26: So it's really crazy how drastically that flipped

00:11:31: from

00:11:31: one day to another.

00:11:32: But

00:11:32: I like your positive attitude there and also believe this is always a fluctuation in the market just like recessions right?

00:11:39: In economy but can be multiple year process.

00:11:44: so for some years then probably goes up again

00:11:48: Absolutely!

00:11:49: So in ten years speaking about future product discovery you will

00:11:56: Still exist.

00:11:59: If I were an IoT device, i'd probably be...

00:12:07: If I was a IoT device?

00:12:16: ...I would be a device that has all the answers to many questions my kids ask every day.

00:12:25: So Alexa

00:12:30: Yes, they already figured out how that works.

00:12:35: Okay a recent moment that made me smile was I mean you're smiling right now but maybe before the recording?

00:12:44: Seeing with my team at FedEx we had a recent evaluation of it and since i started my business in my first...I do some small assignments when my first big assignment is with FedEx where am an interim product manager

00:12:59: Known from the movie Cast Away for those who remember.

00:13:02: Exactly,

00:13:03: yes!

00:13:04: Every now and then we discuss Wilson right?

00:13:07: Wilson is the ball that Nicolas Cage's talking about... Exactly And sometimes when we joke should bring him back as some kind of mascot or something.

00:13:17: But yeah.

00:13:21: So When I arrived At FedEx, there was a clear need for product discovery in certain area.

00:13:27: I will not go into the contents that take too long and thats why they asked me because i'm heavily oriented on product discovery right?

00:13:38: And it very much needed this area also some help to learn how to do that.

00:13:46: so basically walked with my toolkit of experience.

00:13:50: And then you have the hopes that unfolds in a positive way, right?

00:13:55: That starts with getting your team along.

00:13:57: so we had an newly formed team.

00:14:00: I would become the product manager.

00:14:02: there was UX design and UX researcher business analyst later on also developers which joined from my time at Tata.

00:14:11: it's pretty confident about.

00:14:14: I'm working with Teresa's opportunity solution trees and the whole process around it.

00:14:19: So, I introduced that there.

00:14:22: but you always have to see how things play out especially in a corporate environment like FedEx right?

00:14:27: That is probably not how they are used doing this.

00:14:31: Speaking about fast moving start-up environments...

00:14:33: Exactly!

00:14:36: But that went surprisingly well And thats also why i liked my assignment at FedEx so much because it was received so well, and we also see working even in a corporate environment.

00:14:48: That's that's so exciting!

00:14:50: And you asked what put a smile on my face?

00:14:54: We had the recent evaluation with the team... ...and everybody gave back how much they valued this way of working How not only saw work for their business but how individual people in the team also deeply enjoyed the ways were working And that was maybe even more rewarding for me.

00:15:15: See, if you help people learn to work this way... ...that they actually find even more joy in the work that there are doing?

00:15:22: Yeah!

00:15:23: I guess from how i know you so far.. That's something that motivates you most.

00:15:28: right when everybody on the team.... When this momentum is there and everyone feels connected You're someone who really connects people.

00:15:38: yeah

00:15:38: it's important And if you can combine that with making a real impact to solving the problem, it will help people and make your customers also smile.

00:15:49: That's perfect picture!

00:15:51: Yeah absolutely I only know you smiling.

00:15:56: so i was asking myself is it that you wake up in happy mood always or there something that instantly tells How do you start your day?

00:16:10: I envision, You wake up and have a smile on your face.

00:16:13: But

00:16:14: no that would not be very human right.

00:16:16: so i don't always with the smile of my face.

00:16:18: in all honesty Right there are also bad days And they're also days That life is little bit tougher.

00:16:25: but In general it's good attitude to look through A positive pair glasses To live in general Also for work Regardless of how difficult it is, I've been in quite some difficult situations at work.

00:16:42: But i think the foundation for navigating that complexity... ...is always positivity if you ask me.

00:16:49: So I guess that's how I'm wired?

00:16:51: I don't really think about it.

00:16:52: so.. ..it's not that I intentionally do something and then that happens!

00:16:58: So it's not that you think about, okay this is the attitude I want to bring to my team and therefore wear that mask all day when i'm in office.

00:17:06: And then come home your the sad clown.

00:17:13: No no It's just who I am right?

00:17:19: Its' not a strategy...I can be myself.

00:17:23: Then there are upsides also as downsides.

00:17:28: So Kai, now that we broke the ice I want to address The Elephant in the room.

00:17:33: You already mentioned it right away.

00:17:36: after looking at your profile... ...I see there's one thing We NEED TO talk about and thats Your AT LEAST PREVIOUS obsession with Scrum!

00:17:45: I was wondering if you are the kind of person Marty Cagan might have in mind when he talks or rants about the danger of process people?

00:17:56: Maybe we should ask Marty.

00:17:58: You can look at my resume and I invite him for a short talk, then he could make his opinion but...

00:18:04: I guess CSPO one and CSPO two might trigger already

00:18:09: some controversial

00:18:10: debate?

00:18:11: Yeah yeah so my honest opinion about that..I think for awhile i've been more on the process side with Scrum So I see as points right ?

00:18:22: What went a bit wrong with scrum is that we got obsessed with learning Scrum, which is nice.

00:18:29: But if you're a product manager it's still good to understand Scrum but its actually way more important than you learn Product Management and how to apply product discovery That you learned to develop this product sense that Marty was talking about.

00:18:47: so in that sense I'm fully within And if I look in the mirror, in my early days.

00:18:52: I recognize that it was also a bit obsessed with how to run The Perfect Sprint Review for example and there is still value in that right?

00:19:01: Because It can make a whole difference.

00:19:03: If you run A Sprint review badly as we just demoed the work then we applaud versus an interactive session With your stakeholders where you're looking at product increments and where you facilitate learning in that session.

00:19:21: That again is product management, right?

00:19:24: So I think what's a little bit the issue with Scrum is it has many mis-implementations And we have been a bit over obsessed by.

00:19:35: hey as long as i know how Scrum works then them were good.

00:19:38: so We sent all our Product Owners to a Scrum class two days.

00:19:43: Then they can tell their are a product manager

00:19:46: Yeah, and they just understood the process how to organize product delivery.

00:19:51: And they didn't learn anything about product management?

00:19:53: Yes!

00:19:55: I think that second problem with Scrum is it's a lightweight framework not too suitable for implementation of scale.

00:20:06: Oh... They're safe!

00:20:08: Yet what happened in The Hype

00:20:10: right?!

00:20:11: Is all corporate world went scrum because everybody had to do

00:20:14: scrum

00:20:16: And then you get things like safe or really weird scrum implementation, our own cooked thingy.

00:20:22: Um and what we didn't typically see in the org chart is that the product owner um Is not at the strategic level.

00:20:33: where?

00:20:33: You would like to see a product manager?

00:20:35: yeah

00:20:36: Yeah, yeah, and and that's also an observation that I share with Marty is that many product owners are actually backlog managers taking orders from the business, right?

00:20:47: Ticket riders or maybe a proxy in between at least.

00:20:52: In the best case requirement engineers may have it not really responsible for the outcome

00:20:59: of

00:20:59: work on that team and I like what i observe...I don't know What is this in The Netherlands but pretty much think its comparable.. I Think the agile community didn´t help itself to achieve what they initially wanted to achieve.

00:21:19: The idea of agile software development isn't that we tick boxes in a process and it's also not about people being happy, It is about shipping value to customers in small increments fast and learn from them.

00:21:37: When I have to explain this to senior managers who need to be convinced of the value off agile processes are always explain it as a risk management method, because you don't have that risk.

00:21:50: Of wasting all your effort.

00:21:53: cuz he only released software after two years of development but you're gonna slice that down and you're going to ship increments into gun.

00:22:00: learn from that And therefore You Don't Have To Risk Your Entire Investment.

00:22:06: I mean, that's basically the idea.

00:22:08: It is coming from a business perspective and not form new work workplace ideas.

00:22:16: And what was kind of made out it?

00:22:20: What i realize when see new teams in my work Is we completely forgot as an industry That young people are coming into their first jobs that they just get to see agile as being.

00:22:40: yeah, thats how we work.

00:22:42: They don't know why we worked that way.

00:22:44: the dont about purpose of a stand up or very review over retro refinement And then they just get to see, okay this is the activities we do and when we did all these activities.

00:22:57: We can go home um...and there's too many agile coaches out there who understand their jobs as just ticking the boxes.

00:23:04: like.

00:23:05: I prepared a retro!

00:23:07: doesn't matter if the retro changed anything, but the idea of a retro is to have actionable items and that we follow up on those.

00:23:15: And then we improve our ways off working stuff.

00:23:19: so I think the entire idea got lost in the process.

00:23:23: sort of say people just focus on.

00:23:25: these are things i can tick boxes.

00:23:28: yeah agree it's good as you mentioned new generation coming right because grew with it, right?

00:23:35: When it started to emerge.

00:23:37: That's when I was starting my career i guess.

00:23:42: so I grew with It and yeah... I think regardless if you work at Scrim or something else You should begin from the underlying principles.

00:23:50: So you should somehow allow this next generation To first learn the agile principles before you confront them With any kind of framework Right?

00:24:03: Because if you master the principles, that framework doesn't matter anymore.

00:24:06: And I honestly don't care whether i work in a sprint or in a Kanban mechanism because I can trust... ...that I understand underlying principles.

00:24:16: Yeah and when you work perfectly scrum by book but you don't ship value at least once a month let's say In software hopefully faster than that.

00:24:31: But I've met teams who said, yeah we are very agile and then you ask okay what's the last time you shipped to production?

00:24:40: Yeah when... We only do that once a year.

00:24:43: Okay!

00:24:43: That is basically not the idea of Agile You might still have perfect scrum process but The Idea What it should deliver completely lost.

00:24:55: So before we get lost, I would want to go back in time.

00:25:01: And if i'm not mistaken you grew up in the beautiful part Limburg and the Netherlands?

00:25:08: Yeah

00:25:08: that's correct.

00:25:09: when

00:25:09: you think about your childhood what comes to mind

00:25:12: first?

00:25:14: yeah happiness.

00:25:15: just had a really nice childhood.

00:25:19: coming from family of four on second child We have

00:25:25: something in common.

00:25:26: Nice, yeah.

00:25:28: and Yeah my mother's side.

00:25:30: we had a very large family with a lot of uncles and aunts And I honestly remember my childhood as a very warm and also Issue free stage-of life.

00:25:46: that sounds great.

00:25:47: That sounds like the child who everyone

00:25:48: wants

00:25:49: to have right?

00:25:50: Do you remember an early moment when Fairness or responsibility, or ethics first became withable to you?

00:25:57: because I feel that's something you value a lot.

00:26:04: Yeah, responsibility!

00:26:05: You're gonna go very far back in time...I think it was seven years old?

00:26:12: I had two younger sisters and my youngest sister she is i think seven years younger than me.

00:26:18: I misunderstood.. I thought four includes your parents.

00:26:21: no

00:26:22: I only have one brother.

00:26:25: A little bit more, yeah?

00:26:27: So... so i have one older brother and two younger sisters And um Yeah, I think what I really value about the way my parents raised me is that they gave me responsibility on a very early age Of course within a confined safe space.

00:26:47: I would say right.

00:26:51: But when I was seven, my younger sister was just born.

00:26:54: She was really still a baby and My parents would go to our neighbors across the street again.

00:27:01: They would not go to the other side of town but there wouldn't be any in-house.

00:27:06: And you know this was time that no mobile phone.

00:27:09: There were no whatsapp where we can send quick text message.

00:27:12: We had fixed phone line with number of our neighbours written on a note next The

00:27:17: number of the house.

00:27:19: Yeah, yeah that person you could ring a house

00:27:24: in the Netherlands?

00:27:25: You had like a phone number right?

00:27:26: so

00:27:28: I mean it was one telephone for the entire House.

00:27:32: yes exactly.

00:27:33: So there was just one phone for the Entire House and i remember my sister which Was still a baby waking up And she started to cry but instead ringing my parents straight away.

00:27:47: My brother and I would get up, we'd make a bottle of milk give her the milk and put it back to bed.

00:27:54: Wow!

00:27:55: And then my parents would get home and say how did this go?

00:27:58: She was awake for a moment but we gave her the bottle.

00:28:02: she went back to sleep.

00:28:04: now having my own kids right i even realized oh wow that was quite an early early moment in my life where learned to take responsibility.

00:28:14: So that's maybe one very concrete example.

00:28:18: Wow, and what would you say?

00:28:20: which values from your upbringing still guide you today?

00:28:25: Yeah I think taking the responsibility Another value is being who are Being unique in their own way.

00:28:38: Be yourself.

00:28:40: Yes my parents also gave us this Yeah, and they take the chances you get right.

00:28:50: just Just go for it.

00:28:51: That's another one I would say.

00:28:54: what do you say?

00:28:54: there was something?

00:28:55: You had to unlearn from your childhood.

00:28:59: yeah i think we touched upon that.

00:29:01: I don't think that's something that Is really something that I was taught in how my parents raised me.

00:29:09: but That feeling from a child of my rather not be in the center off the attention As my career grew, I had to as i mentioned learn that go-to the fervor state so mentally could take certain steps in my career and also personal life.

00:29:31: As a product manager you quite often at this center of things yeah

00:29:36: exactly

00:29:37: yeah center of gravity decision making.

00:29:40: And you mentioned your family, how were decisions made in your family?

00:29:49: Can you recall that?

00:29:50: was it more intuitively or Was It More Logical Or Was Is Just Intransparent?

00:30:01: I think a mix of both.

00:30:04: I Think More Intuitively But Collaborative.

00:30:13: So i think there is always As A Family and Not That My Parents Would Decide Everything.

00:30:19: So you sat together as a family to take decisions?

00:30:22: Yeah, I don't remember that literally but it's how i feel when we reflect back on the time.

00:30:31: Sounds great!

00:30:34: Let's go bit further in your life and have a look at your career.

00:30:44: When looking at your CV It looks intentional and linear.

00:30:49: And I was wondering because every CV kind of looks like intentional and linear in hindsight, we connect the dots.

00:30:56: But did it feel like this from the inside?

00:31:01: Yeah, partially yes.

00:31:05: It was.

00:31:06: during my studies...I kind of did a study that's called communication multimedia design.

00:31:11: i think you have similar thing with Germany Which basically is very broad.

00:31:19: So I learned how to be a camera guy.

00:31:23: I learnt, How To Code?

00:31:26: I Learned How To Design and I learned A lot About Communication And Marketing.

00:31:31: Sounds Like You Learned Everything You Need As A Product Manager Right?

00:31:35: Exactly!

00:31:36: That's The

00:31:36: Great Assets For... For Nine Sites It Was A Great Asset for... I Think i Still Benefit From That.

00:31:42: That Was Sweet On University Or Hardly?

00:31:45: Yes, It Is Like A University Yeah,

00:31:49: so university of applied science.

00:31:51: Exactly I was looking for the English word thanks.

00:31:57: but The pitfall such a study is that you need to be intrinsically motivated To become really good at one of these things Right?

00:32:04: Otherwise You will just Be average or below average right.

00:32:08: So i think after the second year Or so it's very important during such A study That you develop that passion For One Of These Aspects that you start intentionally choosing the right modules because from the third year onwards, you can kind of mix and match your curriculum.

00:32:24: And then you bathe apart towards a specialization.

00:32:30: I guess everybody did it.

00:32:31: so my fellow students went into development some went in to design and also quite a few went into product management i must say.

00:32:40: but they didn't know agile back than Modern product management, right?

00:32:46: So it's not that I thought during my studies.

00:32:47: I'm going to become a project manager.

00:32:49: but what is soon realized as yes i like To make a good design and liked to code But I am NOT a mathematician so It's Not.

00:32:59: My talent to code takes me way more effort And energy than A More talented person I would say

00:33:07: to the younger ones there was a time where we had code by writing code instead of prompting.

00:33:15: Exactly, yes.

00:33:16: It was

00:33:16: a time before vibe coding?

00:33:18: Yes and in that time it was when we were still taught ASP right dot net um.

00:33:25: And I liked every now with them.

00:33:27: but they also got really frustrated When he couldn't figure out.

00:33:30: so i realized if have to do this for the rest Of my career will probably eat My keyboard or something.

00:33:36: So I soon knew no its not going To be development.

00:33:39: I'm a very also quite creative guy, so I could have imagined the design career.

00:33:44: But in the end i realized that it all starts with why behind every product or service is being coded for being designed.

00:33:53: and thats what truly fascinated me.

00:33:56: So I intentionally chose my internships to be more towards strategy.

00:34:09: I did my final thesis around the future of multimedia at an online travel community and back then they were still selling space to upload pictures.

00:34:21: Yeah,

00:34:22: yeah And i basically did a tour through uh The most famous agencies in the Netherlands tried to speak with all the gurus and i kind of shaped their recommendations for the future Number one, that was in two thousand and eight.

00:34:34: Number One was forget about your business model.

00:34:37: find a new one please because not so long from now there will be cloud storage And people are not going to pay for ten picture placing ten pictures on the website anymore.

00:34:48: The second one reverse strategy From desktop to mobile.

00:34:53: first Because Not So Long From Now It Was In A Time That First iPhone Was Launched.

00:34:57: Of Course not so long in the future, we expect that people are primarily looking at their mobile devices.

00:35:06: Of course with a knowledge of today right it's obvious.

00:35:08: I think this is already very old news but yeah still sometimes when i read back to thing like oh that what really made me passionate the future, like we're discussing AI today.

00:35:22: We don't really know how it will develop right?

00:35:24: So you try to look in the future and develop a strategy on how to anticipate on these developments in technology And back then that was cloud storage and mobile devices becoming faster and smarter Right!

00:35:40: Today is AI That we tried to anticipate

00:35:49: something you'd say, You have a talent for like seeing these trends and thinking about okay what will be possible in the future?

00:35:56: And how might that influence The way we work.

00:35:58: And the products We build?

00:36:00: or is it That's Something you learned and had to learn?

00:36:06: Yeah I think A mix of two right.

00:36:08: i Think It's Of interest To me Right!

00:36:12: I just Like to look Into the Future and to think What does innovation mean?

00:36:18: But ultimately what drives me is to find solutions for problems that hinder people in their everyday lives, right?

00:36:27: So it's not about the technology or innovation.

00:36:32: What truly drives me and I noticed very early my studies how cool if you can find a solution

00:36:44: Sounds like the perfect motivation to become a product manager.

00:36:47: To me, yes

00:36:49: yet when I maybe...I don't know how long you want to go into this topic of.

00:36:54: did i know where?

00:36:54: Wanted to do that and wanted it wants to be called my project manager.

00:36:58: Um..i think after two years in the work field or so um.... I had these pivotal moments were was missing the human connection in my daily work.

00:37:17: So I really had kind of a, I don't know identity crisis is little bit too heavy right?

00:37:25: But it was really reflected as this what i want to do for rest of my life.

00:37:29: just thinking about commerce making money with digital applications and actually did part time study become history teacher I learned everything about the Romans and the Greeks.

00:37:42: That's not

00:37:42: on your LinkedIn

00:37:43: profile?

00:37:45: No, it is no longer relevant because i stopped after a year... Because I realized that there would be three more years of really hard work running a study next to my employment as well.

00:38:03: so I was working for three-and-a-half days.

00:38:06: I was then in school two days, so there were already five and a half days.

00:38:10: And then i still had to study right for my exam.

00:38:13: So it was basically seven days... Seven days per week Was

00:38:16: the time you've been at Easy Apps?

00:38:18: Yeah exactly an easy apps was the company behind A back then famous travel community Which they cannot pronounce Yes wow by Jepen.

00:38:26: nu

00:38:28: So I would have never guessed that based on how you write it.

00:38:31: We

00:38:31: had a German variant, uh... That was called Woobie's two yets.

00:38:36: so

00:38:36: basically You could share with your home front if you were backpacking where you are and share some pictures.

00:38:42: But there

00:38:44: was before Facebook right?

00:38:46: It was different time When i reflect on that discovered the human aspect of product back then, yet.

00:39:01: It was a very small startup.

00:39:03: I had my team right but it was like one theme that i was working with...it wasn't actually in ...I don't know..a very small environment and I think that kind made me miss the human interactions

00:39:18: yeah

00:39:19: And that year studying to become history teacher gave me the energy to make the next step in my product career because I realized, hey there.

00:39:28: It was also in front of the classroom right?

00:39:30: So it all so was.

00:39:31: they're in a class room with thirty young students in front off me

00:39:35: and that stage

00:39:36: and i realised every job as is downsides!

00:39:39: I love kids don't get me wrong but its...I have respect for a lot..my wife's teacher has a lot of respect for teachers.

00:39:46: uh....because theres alot pressure on your shoulder I think of could have become a teacher, but it was already educated to be something else.

00:39:55: And that made me realize hey let's go for this because everything has its open downsides.

00:40:02: and at the same time i took some next steps in my product career... ...and that brought me way more rewards in terms of collaboration with other people starting to train.. ..other people into crafts or product management etc.

00:40:16: so I'm still a teacher today, but then within the area of product.

00:40:19: So i think i found kind of the ideal combination that works for me.

00:40:24: Yeah you are The Discovery Doctor Today so You could have studied medicine as well right?

00:40:28: Exactly!

00:40:29: You Have the painkillers For discovery...I

00:40:32: brought you some today.

00:40:33: Yes!

00:40:34: Wonderful..You Brought Me Painkillars.

00:40:37: No it's not painkiller.

00:40:41: If u take the analogy Of A doctor.

00:40:46: I

00:40:47: mean, in medicine you can do two things.

00:40:50: You can cure or prevent right?

00:40:55: And basically when you need a cure your already too late and that's how i like to approach my services through the teams that work with me.

00:41:05: I always start from advantage point but not sick

00:41:08: yeah

00:41:09: um... But you can tap into potential.

00:41:13: that makes you even more successful if you learn the craft of product discovery and in particular continuous discovery.

00:41:21: So I find it a way more positive approach to talk about bringing vitamins than a medicine, right?

00:41:28: That's why we came with the term value.

00:41:31: vitamins

00:41:32: is

00:41:33: really easy Tobias.

00:41:34: You just take one at breakfast on every working day And then will deliver your great outcomes.

00:41:42: Wow.

00:41:42: I

00:41:45: think it's sold!

00:41:46: Absolutely kidding, of course... It is just a nice gimmick that matched the brand name but in essence there are links to what i believe right?

00:41:56: So another aspect of a vitamin is That will only have an effect if you make it routine.

00:42:05: Yes

00:42:06: If you take one day and then don't take for next two weeks It has absolutely no effect.

00:42:13: But if you learn to take a vitamin every day at breakfast, You still need do the work yourself but the vitamin will actually give your little bit of extra To prevent falling sick.

00:42:24: That's how I understood Your analogy.

00:42:27: First like Every morning At breakfast i have to Learn one little thing more and it is...I thought its more in this One percent improvement every day idea.

00:42:42: But yeah, you're absolutely right we have to make these things a routine.

00:42:45: like there's so many teams who do one successful discovery sprint and then forget about it for

00:42:53: the

00:42:53: rest of year.

00:42:54: basically I think your follow-through is a lot in your work.

00:42:59: You mentioned her already And they are all making continuous habits

00:43:05: Obviously heavily inspired by.

00:43:07: when i talk about habits just because I read a book also, because i saw it work during my time at Tato.

00:43:15: And now again at FedEx right?

00:43:17: So

00:43:18: yeah...

00:43:18: It's really nice after the first few months that you see it becoming a habit and then it becomes a super powerful mechanism.

00:43:28: Yep!

00:43:29: Then you have to visit product ad Harkley gonna have Teresa Torres again.

00:43:33: tickets are on sale.

00:43:40: When you think about your career and started at EasyApps, you've been at NRISE.

00:43:47: You have been at QB in Nico?

00:43:51: Yes so QB was like a venture of Inigo where it's fully independent when I joined QB And there we developed smart thermostat that is mainly successful on the Dutch market.

00:44:05: And then you went to the competitor Tado, who is mainly successful on the entire European market.

00:44:10: Exactly!

00:44:12: I was wondering which of these environments shaped your thinking most?

00:44:18: I will say Tado because... ...I definitely think that it's the environment where i had the pleasure and there are no offence from all other former colleagues or companies at all.

00:44:32: But when I joined Tato They had the money to invest in right people, right?

00:44:39: So In the end it's all about People.

00:44:43: well of course money.

00:44:44: You need some money to hire these people But at the end is all about a people.

00:44:50: even after fifteen years in the profession I Still cannot do without The other people in the room the order product managers the product leaders The talent designers the talented engineers.

00:45:07: And I think at Tado, it had a pleasure to work with very highly skilled team and that helped me again learn a lot of things for myself as well.

00:45:20: So and Tado as well as QB then before in IoT field was like you started software right?

00:45:30: Was this kind of conscious decision from software into the hardware side of

00:45:36: things?

00:45:36: No, not really.

00:45:39: Before joining QB I was working at NRISE which is more like an agency specialized in complex tailor-made systems mainly complex backend layers and what i really liked was complex work.

00:45:59: What I, after some time missed was the long-term commitment to making a single product.

00:46:06: A success because in an agency you come and at some point you leave again right?

00:46:13: And usually the leaving was at a point where i didn't feel ready to disembark from driving that strategy forwards together with clients But then the contract ends or whatever.

00:46:26: So I really wanted to work for a product organization and then QB came on my path, but it was not that I was looking for an IT company.

00:46:36: just what i was looking For Was A Complex Product Environment?

00:46:40: Well with hardware and IoT you can tell you get complexity.

00:46:44: so That made me very enthusiastic from The Beginning... ...but there was also little bit of how You say It a random look that I kind of

00:46:56: got in there.

00:47:01: So, if you briefly describe to the software product managers what is the challenge with hardware devices?

00:47:16: Two things.

00:47:18: one i already touched upon really quickly as daily releases Haha, you can forget about it in Hardware.

00:47:26: Weekly releases?

00:47:27: Haha!

00:47:28: You can't forget about the hardware... It's a fact that in hardware an iteration let us call it iteration just takes a long time because we need to go through our physical process is not digital processes but a physical process where a M-Cut engineer or industrial designer and all kinds of different people need to wrap their heads around the pure science, making a hardware product.

00:47:59: And once that is done you have to figure out how can actually build it?

00:48:03: So we need develop tooling for in-the-factory.

00:48:07: Once we have the tooling You can actually built your first batch of prototypes.

00:48:12: I think what's really important to realize.

00:48:17: We often refer to Tesla, right?

00:48:19: How we can do that way more rapidly.

00:48:23: But I dare say most hardware companies are not Tesla so they still have a manufacturer in China or Eastern Europe... Those of them

00:48:31: don't own the factory where the product

00:48:33: gets built.

00:48:35: That means you should ship your prototypes And more than once, there was a delay.

00:48:42: Customs decided that they did not trust the package and I just kept it at Munich Airport for four weeks.

00:48:47: then you were just waiting to receive the prototypes right?

00:48:50: Because until we have them in your hands You cannot learn.

00:48:53: So that's what is biggest challenge.

00:48:57: Which

00:48:58: kind of gets better with three D printing?

00:49:03: because you can build prototypes yourself At least some degree

00:49:08: Yes, but to some degree.

00:49:12: In my experience it's

00:49:14: quite

00:49:14: quickly... So for first rounds of discovery that works really well.

00:49:20: then you can explain through the participants of your test.

00:49:23: hey this is not a real device.

00:49:24: and yeah But rather soon You cannot even run in field tests or something right?

00:49:31: Or pilots because they just will break But in the very early stage, that can help you.

00:49:38: So we need to be clever and especially in the early stages try to learn fast because as soon as your start bigger efforts are risking a lot of time or money if you don't validate your assumptions properly before this moment.

00:49:55: The second pain point with hardware I think is specially connected hardware where it has also an IoT device.

00:50:03: The cloud and exposed in a mobile app is what I call once means forever.

00:50:10: As soon as your device starts running off the conveyor belt, in mass production there's no way back anymore.

00:50:20: it either mean inventory that never sold right?

00:50:24: So then you have physical products lying in warehouse.

00:50:27: if don't sell them probably bankrupts.

00:50:34: And if you sell it, but it turns out to be the wrong thing.

00:50:40: You have to support crap in the field for a decade or so?

00:50:44: Yeah

00:50:45: I always liked the example of tone The first thermostat that they worked on where when i joined who are about to launch the second generation with high hopes For innovation and the Netherlands was In the middle off the start Of the energy transition.

00:50:59: we're talking About recommending people to trans Transition two heat pumps etc.

00:51:05: We had lots of ideas, cool features that we could display on the thermostat.

00:51:10: However when you launch a second generation, ninety-nine percent of your user base is still in the first generation which rapidly ran out of disk space and memory.

00:51:19: so all these nice feature ideas we have... ...we couldn't really move forward with because this constraint of hardware specifications for the first generations.

00:51:31: So then you can make workarounds expose features only on the second generation.

00:51:36: but every work around you come up with leads to more support cases, yeah.

00:51:39: More maintenance costs etc.

00:51:42: so that's also a big complication.

00:51:45: if you develop hardware ask me?

00:51:48: Yeah and in other way round I guess you need be as cost efficient possible More memory and

00:51:57: exactly like

00:51:59: more advanced processors.

00:52:01: And stuff because it would be more or less a waste of money at the time being.

00:52:07: yes, exactly

00:52:10: yeah that's tricky I can imagine.

00:52:13: another thing i find pretty tricky in hardware when I think about is nowadays you ship iot devices right so connected devices which means you have to provide the software platform as well and that's like.

00:52:29: It no longer did u sell a hardware product, and then it sold out of your hands.

00:52:35: you have two continuously maintain it and do also have continuous costs like ongoing cost to provide infrastructure so that the hardware device is working in there.

00:52:46: for I mean it's not a surprise that many hardware companies are searching for recurring revenues like some subscription models and we see something.

00:52:57: What makes sense, and we sees some crazy things like in the kind of street there was one manufacturer don't remember which brand it wasn't doesn't matter.

00:53:10: they wanted to charge for carplay, like you need a monthly subscription to use CarPlay or adaptive light.

00:53:18: You need which changes in the curves right?

00:53:23: You need have a subscription in order to unlock that and For sure you can think of as being crazy.

00:53:34: How long how many years do we have to wait until?

00:53:36: We get the standard break breaking power in our cars for free.

00:53:40: And if you want a better breaks, we have two pay some fee or whatnot.

00:53:45: and I mean it's to some degree It is already reality right.

00:53:48: so electric vehicles having big batteries but You need to unlock the additional capital capacity while you Pay To move around heavy battery Yeah, on your energy bill so to say.

00:54:08: It makes me think there's a few paradigms that are changing.

00:54:14: like the hardware does not really... I'm not really the owner of Hardware anymore Like iIm A Big Fan Of Sonos but The First Generation.

00:54:24: they decided at one point That They Are Not Going To Support it Anymore and then basically Your Hardware Product Becomes Useless.

00:54:34: How do you think about these developments and what Do You Think we will see in the future there?

00:54:39: Yeah, so At The core of this question is Obviously money right And if you look at investments on how recurring revenue is valued versus hardware sales it's fully understandable that connected hardware companies are looking for models where you can generate recurring revenue because I don't know exactly, but I think your valuation becomes thirty times higher on recurring revenue than on hardware revenue.

00:55:17: So there is a... at the core of this reason why all the connected hardware companies are looking for recurring business models, yet you have to be really careful there.

00:55:38: You gave the example of a car that starts charging for CarPlay and monthly fee but I dare say it has become like a hygiene factor if you buy new cars these days right?

00:55:51: You want your phone to easily connect with media system in your car.

00:55:57: So I have strong doubts if that model will survive.

00:55:59: Um, so there are a few factors you have to look at the competition right?

00:56:04: If all your competitors offer it as a premium uh just as part of the hardware product that you buy You can forget about creating a recurring business model around us.

00:56:14: Yeah!

00:56:14: So at the core you really have to innovate and you cannot stick with what you invented ten years ago.

00:56:19: Right because a few years later That might've been commoditized.

00:56:25: So being a hardware company with a recurring business model means you need to optimize for innovation constantly.

00:56:34: You need to be constantly ahead of the curve.

00:56:37: when we launched, when Tony was launching it before I joined QB back then that It wasn't this model where people paid a monthly fee for controlling their thermostat on their mobile phone.

00:56:50: We had just thousands of paying subscribers

00:56:54: right?

00:56:54: That was innovation back then, that

00:56:57: game

00:56:58: changer.

00:56:59: These days when I go on holiday... ...I have this pet feeder where i put the food for my cat in and during the holiday.. ..I can press a button somewhere in Spain under Canary Islands to give my cat and Limburg his food right?

00:57:14: Of course it's also automated but scheduled so he can at least check my phone and say oh yeah you got his foods!

00:57:21: So every device is connected these days with your phone.

00:57:24: Yeah,

00:57:25: it's commoditized.

00:57:27: So what is a healthy recurring business model for connected hardware?

00:57:32: Is constantly shifting and that can be difficult because if your product grows you also build legacy And the more legacy you built The more you hamper innovation power.

00:57:44: basically right I see sometimes as struggle.

00:57:48: companies have That ability to innovate.

00:57:53: Lowers over time with the need for innovation.

00:57:55: If you want to maintain such a model is absolutely there.

00:58:00: and what would you say because, uh?

00:58:02: You know The overarching theme as intuition for this season of the podcast.

00:58:06: Yeah What's

00:58:07: the role of intuition in context of innovation?

00:58:10: Would you say innovation relies on intuition or it more like a structured process?

00:58:17: No, it's definitely not a structural process because innovation.

00:58:20: What is innovation at its core?

00:58:22: It's doing the unimaginable right.

00:58:26: if you through as structured process Can define that this probably not innovation enough.

00:58:33: So the biggest innovations were things that you could not ask a person on the street.

00:58:38: You might remember these interviews in the nineties where they asked about would she like her mobile phone and ever said no This big thing in my pocket.

00:58:47: I already have a phone at home, don't know why you need to call while on my bicycle.

00:58:53: so the biggest innovations are things that people do not need yet today but will change world.

00:58:59: and then again there can be.

00:59:04: process helps structure innovation.

00:59:09: it is mix of both.

00:59:12: Do you, can you remember in your career a moment where you kind of had that feeling?

00:59:18: I know something but i cannot prove it already with the data at hand?

00:59:24: Hmm.

00:59:25: Maybe I'm a bad innovator because... I cannot really give a straight immediate answer.

00:59:34: No!

00:59:34: I don't really recall such moments.

00:59:37: So you feel like Most of the decisions you made as a product manager were based on data instead.

00:59:45: No, no it's always is always a combination I must say but You'll always try to anticipate base based and evidence that you have around their needs right.

00:59:56: so he tried To understand.

00:59:57: the market has been in energy sector for eight years And already from year one onwards people are shouting at the energy transition was starting.

01:00:06: We would all change through heat bumps next here And every year.

01:00:09: that was next year.

01:00:12: So how do you sense?

01:00:13: when is the right moment to make a product dedicated to heat bumps, for example?

01:00:18: Which we did at Tato and up-to today... That project that we built, The Heat Bump Optimizer has really nice products but it's not clear if the market is ready or not And I'm not at the company anymore so i don't know how developments are today out.

01:00:39: it went in the last month.

01:00:43: But that's a guess is an example where your product sense as Marty called right kind of combined with market figures you have and anecdotes from talking to customers and experts on the markets, This at least has a good chance of succeeding.

01:01:01: So let's be the first in the market and take it.

01:01:04: little bit of risk, you know being too early but then we are ahead off to competition.

01:01:08: right i think that is the consideration that your making.

01:01:13: yeah... But thats really an interesting point you're making there because I feel like market timing.

01:01:20: when do I launch my product?

01:01:22: That something you cannot find data for?

01:01:26: so its If you are way too early, You might fail.

01:01:31: Yeah if your little bit to early you might be ahead of competition and if you're too late... ...you also running into trouble.

01:01:39: yeah

01:01:40: exactly so you cannot rely on data completely right?

01:01:44: There's information.

01:01:45: is anybody else doing it already?

01:01:47: Yes sure!

01:01:48: If we talk to professional installers Are they talking about this?

01:01:51: or if he mentioned the topic They just ignore it.

01:01:56: So I can get data.

01:01:57: Yeah, you

01:01:58: can try to predict some trends and stuff.

01:02:00: But I had the Apple Newton in mind right?

01:02:03: So yeah product which was just launched way too early.

01:02:07: market wasn't ready for it ten years later at work

01:02:10: exactly.

01:02:12: so It's a combination of data And your intuition that makes you decide.

01:02:19: then i think That something that are really liked about Tado is in the end it was up to management, right?

01:02:27: Which routes we would take.

01:02:28: And I think Tata was a company where he really wants to be the front runner.

01:02:35: and energy transition with all the risks involved that drove our decisions even if this product will fail from that perspective or bold vision is still the decision because you are the frontrunner on the market That comes with risk, right?

01:02:57: There is a product that you launched.

01:02:58: It was not completely the right timing and it wasn't in too early.

01:03:03: That's perfect segue to one of the messages some guests from Season One left on my answering machine which I wanted to play for you and hear your thought.

01:03:20: My name is Dominik Joste.

01:03:23: How do you distinguish between a bold, intuitive leap

01:03:26: and reckless

01:03:27: overconfidence?

01:03:28: Oh wow.

01:03:30: Thanks Dominik!

01:03:32: Probably the easy

01:03:33: one.

01:03:38: I would like to start with.

01:03:39: people don't decide individually but bring different perspectives.

01:03:46: So what we are questioning here is Do We Actually Have Enough Evidence To Decide This With Confidence And Not With Conviction?

01:03:54: Conviction means I believe this works.

01:03:58: Confidence means we have actual evidence that shows us it will work, but in product you never have one hundred percent evidence right?

01:04:06: So and then why do i first start with people is to make sense of this trade-off.

01:04:15: how much evidence do we have?

01:04:18: what risk are we taking?

01:04:23: That requires a conversation amongst different perspectives and different disciplines, is my experience.

01:04:32: So if you have to write people in the room... ...and discuss dilemma or inspect evidence that you've got... You discussed opportunity.. You agree on risk that would take If decided move forward despite maybe lack of evidence.

01:04:48: Then I wouldn't call it recklessness but strategic decision that you have made as a team after evaluating carefully from different perspectives.

01:05:01: An example of recklessness is, I will not go into too much detail because i don't want to shame any person in the podcast but I've been in situations where people came with an argument based on.

01:05:20: I've been so many years in the industry, I know this works.

01:05:25: Yeah and that's what i call recklessness right?

01:05:28: Then your ego got so big That you believe without any real evidence You can take such a risk Ultimately risking salary of colleagues as well because if it turns out wrong And hits company in bad way It will have consequences

01:05:50: And when you are high up in the hierarchy, people might just follow what you say.

01:05:56: I see that in the tech industry a lot because of these flat hierarchies leaders often times underestimate the way off their words and yeah In hindsight would say Yeah but i just had an idea or didn't say You have to build it.

01:06:15: You could have said something that we don't have evidence or

01:06:18: like,

01:06:19: yeah.

01:06:19: And you need to be careful and also need to listen to your people right

01:06:22: now?

01:06:23: Yeah I think leadership plays an incredible role in answering this question properly.

01:06:31: .I've also been situations where there are three scenarios on the table ,you have a team of professionals chewing on these scenarios for two weeks or so.

01:06:41: they run validations They run experiments They come back to the boardroom, they share their conclusions and bring a recommendation.

01:06:50: To go for scenario three in the CEO says okay it's scenario one.

01:06:55: What do you do with these kinds of situations?

01:06:59: Well what did I do?

01:07:01: today is maybe slightly different because as your growing career You learn how deal with this situation.

01:07:09: So like in user interviews i want to learn story based from your past experience.

01:07:14: Yes

01:07:16: What did we do back then?

01:07:20: What is a really long time ago.

01:07:24: Yeah, I think in the end In that case We ended up doing this scenario one let the CEO wanted and it's in the End turned out not to work.

01:07:34: so i didn't To reflect on that situation.

01:07:39: With my knowledge an experience of today i would have expected me to respond maybe differently in That situation.

01:07:47: It was not a situation where I was the primary person responsible.

01:07:51: That's what somebody else have to say, but if it would happen again today... ...I'd try and find an approach by time.

01:08:06: get some more evidence in either.

01:08:08: prove myself wrong because that could also be But at end i'll show my intentions.

01:08:16: Bring risk within acceptable boundaries.

01:08:19: Yeah, right?

01:08:21: And I find it very important what you just mentioned.

01:08:25: Try to find evidence to prove that you are wrong.

01:08:28: if i see That we're doing that oftentimes Wrong in when we do user testing Um, I mean We learn the most When we learned that we are wrong.

01:08:39: yeah So we should set up tests that are capable of telling us that uh that we aren't.

01:08:44: yeah, all right try to put ourselves into a mindset that we are wrong.

01:08:50: And now, basically... We want to validate that we're wrong because then we falsified our idea.

01:09:00: but often times we do user tests which should just confirm our thinking.

01:09:07: Sorry I forgot the name of the author!

01:09:09: The quote from this book was design like you write and test, right?

01:09:18: So set up your experiment from the conviction that your assumption is true.

01:09:21: But as soon as you go into execution mode with your experiments switch to the other side.

01:09:27: You're wrong And let data prove it's correct.

01:09:30: but until then you are wrong because otherwise your biases they are just around the corner.

01:09:36: As soon as we get a little tiny inch of confirmation your bias case and i say look there we have to one data points.

01:09:43: yes true

01:09:44: that's confirmation bias.

01:09:45: And in the end ultimately I mean, thats what you learn when when you work on science uh... You can own a theory is always well it until you falsified.

01:09:54: therefore you can only try to falsifies things but you can never say that something.

01:10:03: We are running unfortunately out of time.

01:10:05: I could speak with you for a couple more hours, but you have to get ready for the stage as well.

01:10:11: so one last question on the topic of intuition and then i would have a couple questions around that topic of artificial intelligence.

01:10:20: everybody seems to speak about these days But was wondering do feel intuition plays different role in hardware to in software because you spoke about the timelines, constraints and dependencies.

01:10:38: The risk which is much higher... In hardware I can from time-to-time take a judgment call or a leap of faith.

01:10:49: trust my gut feeling cause i can fix it another day again right?

01:10:53: So that's trickier.

01:10:57: So maybe let me start with my definition of intuition in product.

01:11:00: Yeah, don't think I gave that yet.

01:11:04: For me intuition does not mean sensing what's the right choice for your products.

01:11:09: just by sensing mm-hmm from me.

01:11:11: What intuition means is?

01:11:14: Where Is the boundary or thresholds where you have validated Your assumptions and off very low at your risk enough to make a decision?

01:11:27: Because as you will see also tonight in my presentation, the theory is really easy.

01:11:32: You run experiments where that to collect evidence and with it evidenced your lower your risk?

01:11:36: Yeah

01:11:37: And when your risk is low enough, you decide to build product

01:11:40: but nobody tells you what's slow enough

01:11:43: exactly.

01:11:43: there is no magic formula.

01:11:45: yeah,

01:11:46: and It doesn't matter if you're a hardware or software Nobody has the formula and software you also don't have the formula.

01:11:53: The only thing in hardware is that there are more so-called one way door decisions, which are irreversible and highly consequential.

01:12:01: Once the product starts mass production it's their forever to stay as I mentioned.

01:12:08: So they're just more consequential decisions than you make within the hardware space.

01:12:14: But intuition...the scale of intuition As i explained this same thing You have to feel and observe what is the moment where you should make a decision.

01:12:30: So in hardware, we often apply the ALAP principle which means as late as possible.

01:12:36: so try to buy as much time But not too late, right?

01:12:42: You should not start the development to late because then your time-to-market becomes too long and you're competitor is there at first.

01:12:48: So that's why we say as late... Not infinite but as late as possible so that you can collect as much evidence as you possibly can.

01:12:58: And again for me intuition Is a group effort.

01:13:02: it's no individual efforts.

01:13:03: Yeah

01:13:04: That really important Because intuition is very tricky thing.

01:13:10: take intuition from an individual perspective.

01:13:14: It's easy to be misled that you know or feel it is the right thing, but we have not been challenged on this.

01:13:24: and what I really liked about the process at Tado was that we had this joint effort with our own leadership team.

01:13:31: so we were in a group level with a group engineering manager design lead and me as the Group Product Manager.

01:13:39: But we also had this with the other departments.

01:13:41: So, We have evaluation sessions With what we call the extended management team which included The head of sales to Head of marketing at PR and in that group?

01:13:51: We showed the evidence That we collected let's say In the last week or the last two weeks.

01:13:56: Yeah.

01:13:56: And then where you had a discussion on is This enough To make the call so that we can start development Or do we feel we need to run another experiment?

01:14:06: by having the conversation?

01:14:08: We shared a group intuition because nobody has that formula, right?

01:14:12: The CEO also doesn't have to formalize.

01:14:14: So you can go into management and ask them to give you the outcome of the formula.

01:14:18: it's not there.

01:14:20: so It still intuition but group intuition.

01:14:23: I love that And also that definition of intuition.

01:14:27: That is at least this point.

01:14:30: in product management You cannot have data like When I test too long so that i have hundred percent of evidence, let's imagine.

01:14:41: That would even be possible.

01:14:44: then your way to slow.

01:14:46: yeah

01:14:46: and when you test too little The risk is actually big and the sweet spot Is always very different from time-to-time.

01:14:57: right?

01:14:57: it's not like You don't know where the hundred percent?

01:15:01: that makes it challenging and you don't know if you need eighty sixty or forty percent for the decision, but I think what really helps is mental model.

01:15:11: Just mention quickly one-way door decisions so we can go back to later on as soon as possible?

01:15:23: Or only decide now with consequences exactly in hardware.

01:15:30: Even more important, but even in software we have these kinds of decisions and when you think about I don't know system architecture stuff like that.

01:15:38: There's decisions absolutely

01:15:40: yeah

01:15:40: Have long lasting consequences.

01:15:43: So this artificial intelligence thing i recently heard About always wondering?

01:15:52: We get to read a lot about what it does.

01:15:54: the software All software products are becoming intelligent and what not.

01:16:02: all the interfaces will become conversational interfaces.

01:16:09: What's the biggest shift AI is causing in the hardware product world right now?

01:16:17: That was a good question!

01:16:23: I mean, in the entire product world you see that AI is bringing new capabilities.

01:16:28: So for example now at FedEx we're looking into how AI can potentially help reduce complexity when shipping internationally where you have to deal with a lot of regulations and then AI can play really nice role there In hardware...I think it's big difference if you've connected hardware or non-connected hardware And I think there's a great potential in Connected Hardware.

01:16:54: I know Tado has now launched their AI subscription, few weeks ago.

01:17:04: Where AI is going to help you learn the patterns of your heating behavior and further optimize for more efficiency right?

01:17:14: I have to say, i'm not one of the AI front-runners in product.

01:17:19: I consider myself far from an expert so there are probably experts out there who will even more ideas on what you can do with AI and personally taking AI as a need basis for my assignments.

01:17:38: then they're happily embrace it and dive deep into that particular problem that I'm solving with my team, but i am not in all broadness exploring the potential of AI which some other people in the product community are very nicely doing.

01:17:56: And what's your view on product discovery?

01:18:01: To pick up your brand vocabulary is AI more like a vitamin to product management and product discovery?

01:18:13: Yes, I think so.

01:18:14: Or is it more like a disease?

01:18:18: No!

01:18:18: It's not a disease.

01:18:19: Um...I do think that we have to be careful.

01:18:23: um i also have uh very talented UX researcher in my team and if you want a critical view on AI You should have him your podcast And I really liked that.

01:18:36: he was critical because There are a lot of elements that you should still double check if you let AI help, which is probably discovery.

01:18:45: So the real interpretation or observation on how a potential customer is responding to your idea I believe it's human work.

01:18:59: yet when using an AI note-taker You'll be amazed by the conclusions that no taker will take for you, right?

01:19:08: So I see it as a second person in the interview room.

01:19:12: Yeah That brings to additional insights that you might have missed and that's something we should all embrace And should be as product managers really happy with Because i truly believe that helps you catch ideas or opportunities that otherwise may have missed.

01:19:30: Yeah, I think that's an important point there.

01:19:33: There are areas where it can have tremendous impact helping us and making as more efficient and more effective in the end.

01:19:44: And they're areas with simply dangerous to use AI for this.

01:19:52: That's like...I'm very skeptical when i read all these posts on LinkedIn about synthetic user interviews Cause I know like one of the basic rules we learn when we start with user research is what users say, it's not what uses do.

01:20:11: And now it feels there are many people out here who trust what AI thinks users would say?

01:20:20: which is even one step further away from what users do.

01:20:25: And then also, for sure there are all these biases that training data mainly contains the perspective of a white western main and therefore does not represent your target group?

01:20:38: Yeah so going back to my team at FedEx if I have to choose between Kevin ,my UX researcher or an AI telling me what to conclude because he's trained to do that.

01:20:53: And, uh... He is a human.

01:20:55: Yeah So for me having it as an note taker so you can look at these notes and then interpret this notes That great.

01:21:02: But I- At least today personally don't see AI replacing my UX researcher just running the interviews Then giving back conclusions out of

01:21:16: there.

01:21:20: What do you think about the future of these scrum product owner role in AI powered world?

01:21:27: And now speaking about scrum products like by definition.

01:21:32: Yeah, so unpopular opinion.

01:21:35: maybe it's no different than from a product manager I will take away certain operational tasks which creates more space for us to do them all complex project management task.

01:21:50: And I think naturally that's what will happen with the product owner.

01:21:55: The role won't disappear because as long there are teams working with Scrum, they'll be product owners.

01:22:01: but I do believe AI can help to expose how to position this role correctly so it becomes a real Product Manager and not a Backlog Manager.

01:22:11: Yeah!

01:22:11: That is my point of view about the question like... Owner is kind of a role that's clearly defined in the scrum process and tells a lot about writing proper tickets, doing some proper refinements etc.

01:22:30: And every product manager needs to be a product owner as well to some degree whereas not every product owner is also a product manager.

01:22:38: so it's part of the product managers job making sure there work defined that the team, uh... That the engineering team is working on hopefully together with The Engineering Team.

01:22:52: Yeah again right.

01:22:53: then we go into like a semantic discussion of how the product owner role is intended.

01:22:58: I know in lot of situations it's how their roles are implemented Right?

01:23:01: It needs to take care off the requirements and make sure they're filled.

01:23:07: If you read the Scrum Guide carefully it says that the Product Owner is responsible for maximizing the value done by the team by the Scrum team.

01:23:18: And that's the flaw in Scrum is with that one sentence, product management is covered.

01:23:26: because how do you ensure to maximize your value?

01:23:29: By applying all of the product management techniques and craftsmanship which are not described as a Scrum guide.

01:23:37: so it's easily misinterpreted.

01:23:41: What I had a lot of students in the product owner advanced class and what i always hoped is that, That was one takeaway after that class.

01:23:52: It's not about how to apply scrum well but it this inside of.

01:23:56: wow!

01:23:56: I need to be a visionary... ...I need to good at experimentation I need to be able to understand my customers really well, et cetera.

01:24:07: All these things that have nothing do with writing the perfect user story.

01:24:12: but there are all of those things.

01:24:13: you needed a good product manager in the end and for me it was rewarding because we often saw people going home with that insight, like okay it's nice I understand the scrum guy but now i have to start reading those product management books and they need to go do some different trainings and conferences.

01:24:28: And and educate myself.

01:24:31: otherwise you cannot be as successful as a as a product owner.

01:24:34: yeah.

01:24:35: so two last questions.

01:24:38: in one of your posts uh and then I read all your posts um You argued Product managers from your observation cannot say no, because they lack the mandate to demand proper business cases.

01:24:52: From their stakeholders.

01:24:54: and if you had one minute with a CEO I was wondering what single non-negotiable structural change would you demand?

01:25:04: To empower product managers to be true value optimizers.

01:25:09: so If you could have this miracle want to change one thing in the structure of companies.

01:25:20: Endowed, run an experiment?

01:25:28: So if you're endowed... If the CEO is endowed he should not say no and will do it.

01:25:34: He should propose a nice idea but where's the evidence?

01:25:39: Yeah!

01:25:41: The CEO asked the product manager something To put on their roadmap and do.

01:25:47: But the Product Manager raises good arguments or concerns.

01:25:52: You might also ask, where is the evidence?

01:25:54: I've been in that position when you asked a senior leadership member Where's he evidence?

01:25:59: and then it was ignored.

01:26:00: right yeah

01:26:01: for me That's as structural cultural thing in leadership where you embrace That opinions don't matter too much.

01:26:13: But you should look at the evidence sets on the table to Validate the hypothesis and see if it's a good idea or not.

01:26:19: And, If you want to empower your teams when You get as a CEO in this situation that Your direct report is questioning you.

01:26:31: If your ideas are good

01:26:33: then

01:26:33: don't be stepped on your toes but say alright what experiment can we define together?

01:26:40: I give you week To prove me wrong Or to prove me right.

01:26:45: Let's define or design an experiment together that we both believe in.

01:26:49: Yeah, and as a preconditioned that requires leaders who embrace to be challenged

01:26:55: exactly which

01:26:56: I think is the leadership skill That's necessary to become good leader.

01:27:03: listen to your people and invite them to challenge you.

01:27:07: Ask question super easy one What do you hope?

01:27:11: People will say about your impact once you get retired.

01:27:14: Hmm,

01:27:23: I don't know.

01:27:24: I mean which people do.

01:27:28: the People that were happy with a product that they built in?

01:27:33: With my team still say it's when I retire and what will be thirty years.

01:27:41: It doesn't really matter to me because you get reward from today.

01:27:45: right when I see a Happy customer Today When I would look back at my career.

01:27:52: I will not look so much as what people will say then, that moment to me but i hope to look back and a career where i kept getting bagged points were created.

01:28:03: the significant impact two-people with smile on their face.

01:28:08: we're nice product uh... hopefully also little bit.

01:28:13: thank you for being here kai Your insight, your view on intuition and

01:28:20: was a great conversation.

01:28:21: Thank you so much!

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